Saturday, January 20, 2007

What is Deep Doctrine?

In my time as a member I have heard many talk of deep mysteries of the gospel. How many angels can you fit on a pin head? Can God scratch his right elbow with his right hand? Does God know how many planets are in existence throughout all eternity? Who was the first God? And the list is endless itself.

Are these "deep doctrine"? Or just fantasies to intellectualise the gospel into a concept for the learned? To spend time giving silly answers to silly questions, while convincing ones self of ones superior intelligence for being in such a superior discussion?

To me, doctrine worth discussing, and that has more chance of bringing out truth, must be doctrine that has some good intent in its asking. Abraham stood before Christ and posed the question, "wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked" (Gen 18:23)? Was this an intellectual or heart felt question? In verse 25 Abraham asks Christ, "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" Plainly Abraham had concern in his questions. He wanted to be assured that God is good. Christ assured Abraham that he was. This is the sort of stuff that deep doctrine is made of. Deep spiritual experiences that give us knowledge about God and ourselves.

The deepest doctrine that I feel that exists within the church is that which is so often discussed, but rarely understood: Faith, repentence, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have met only a few (and I mean a few) who actually perceive the full significance of this message.

As you get into the habit of discussing deep, heart felt, doctrine you will begin to think in wiser ways. And the Holy Ghost will be with you more, to give you greater understanding.


Rob Osborn said...

Great post, my favorite scripture passages in all of the scriptures is Mosiah 27:25-27. It is very deep doctrine. It reads-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 27:25 - 27)

This is the Lord himself speaking and he lays it out in the sense that Alma is in amazement about the "all people" part cause the Lord says- "marvel not". Now that is deep! How many LDS have this view? We think that this gospel is just for some elite group or something, but in fact it is for "all nations", evry single person must come to the great divide in the road and decide whether they will accept and be born again or not accept and be cast out.

Wow, that is all i can say, wow!

Doug Towers said...


"become new creatures". How many will actually give up themselves completely into the hands of the moulder of new creatures? I believe almost nobody. Just as it is now.

I believe that God almost always keeps absolute focus when speaking. And that must be kept in mind when reading things he says. His absolute focus is eternal life. There is the tops or you're missing out. Life or death. Full or empty. But in places in the D&C he is a lot more specific about this. Different kingdoms for different people. Different degrees within kingdoms, for different people. A totally fair judgement. Showing that the judge of all the earth shall do right. Our entire knowledge of eternity demonstrates different ranks of intelligences.

Christ was the first born of all the intelligences present before the Father. Why? Because he had done the most as an intelligence. The principle of intelligence he had created rose with him into his spirit body. And the same for all of us. We were all different. As spirits we continued to be all different. When it came time for a Saviour to be chosen only one was good enough. So the rest of us were of varying degrees. Satan rules his hordes. Why? Because he is more ardent than all the others. But he would have those almost as ardent as him. And some half heartedly following him etc. On this earth we see that the spirits of people aren't all the same. We have those spiritually inclined and those not. Some are focused on evil a bit. Some a lot. Some extremely. etc. All eternity demonstrates that people don't become totally this or totally that, with no one in between.

I know how you are interpreting these scripture passages. But I feel you are missing the intent, in your genuine concern for your salvation and that of mankind. You have a fear of someone nice being cut off. God loves all mankind far more than you. He will not have anyone suffer, who truly comes to him with full purpose of heart. And even those who don't won't be as you are envisaging. Every consequence throughout all eternity comes from our own actions. It is not cast upon us by God. God doesn't turn on and off the tap of hell or gnashing of teeth. These are just consequences of wrong actions. If I punch my hand against a brick wall it isn't God that makes my hand sore. No two people will have exactly the same blessing or cursing at any time in all eternity. Even within the same degree or kingdom. Judgement is TOTALLY fair. And up to us.

Rob Osborn said...

I find it interesting that people in our faith do not believe the scriptures where it states specifically that he who repents and is baptized is saved, while he who does not is damned, and by that, I mean cast out to outer darkness. What is wrong with this doctrine? If we do not inherit the kingdom of god, what truly is left? Outer darkness? That is the only way i see it from interpreting the scriptures.

Sure, there will be varrying degrees amongst the saints in heaven, but they all will have been born again. In hell there will also be varrying degrees of the wicked, but all of them will of either refused to repent or will have not been faithful to god in keeping their committments. and thus be in the same state of the unrepentant.

I am not trying to speculate that all will be at the same level of intelligence in heaven, I am just saying that all of them will have to be in a state of cleanliness which comes only through the atonement and ordinances. Our scriptures, and the gospel of Christ do not teach that one can be saved from Satan unless he becomes born again as is spoken of in the scriptures I brought out. Those scriptures and several hundred more I could bring up always state that one "must" believe and repent and be baptized, otherwise they are cast out and hewn down into the fire which is the second death.

Our scriptures do not teach of salvation through punishment only. That is a mormon myth- a false doctrine. Salvation only comes to those who are born again into the kingdom of heaven. It reminds me of this section of this verse in 2 Nephi 28:8- .... "there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God." This is the same type of teaching that we as LDS have assumed about the future telestial which comes from a gross misinterpretation of section 19.

Doug Towers said...


You wrote,
"Our scriptures do not teach of salvation through punishment only. That is a mormon myth- a false doctrine."

Now come on, Rob, nobody I know believes that.

You are quoting scriptures as if these definitions can be taken as absolutes.

How many times do the Scriptures talk of how people will be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone? Flames, smoke, and the works. Yet Mosiah 3;27 says that it isn't really a lake of fire and brimstone at all. Alma 12:17 tells us this also. Even the D&C claims it is, however, on 2 occassions.

And look at the definitions of "redemption". I could go on and on with conflicting definitions.

You asked,
"What is wrong with this doctrine? If we do not inherit the kingdom of god, what truly is left? Outer darkness?"

What is wrong is that you are presenting a doctrine of absolute people. This idea is just totally unrealistic. Reality isn't about God deciding who he lets in and who he doesn't. It is about who wants to come in and who doesn't. And those not wanting to spend their time in the presence of someone so righteous (which is the vast majority) don't necessarily want to go with Satan instead. What of the type of people who want to spend their lives at the pool hall, or down at the races, or going to the beach? What are you proposing of these people? These people are prepared to spend their days neither being seriously good or seriously evil. This is people. So where do this vast majority, who will never change, go?

A religious concept must be consistent with reality. Not just be able to be sown up Scripturally.

Rob Osborn said...

All mankind who are in a state of "worldliness" are lost. The "lost" are in satan's eternal grasp. This means that unless they change, they cannot be saved from that eternal grasp. We assume too much on our part I believe.

We just assume that John Doe down at the pool hall having a beer and hanging out with his buddies will be saved from satan's grasp eternally, and this based only upon our own nature of thinking. We assume that he really isn't devil material nor is either considered "heaven" material. Is this what the scriptures coupled with reality teach? I think that is the teaching that Satan wants us to believe.

Alma 5:33-40 speak of hearkening through repentance unto the true shepherd. So does this call go down to John Doe down at the bar too, or is he exempt? For that matter, is anyone exempt from his call to repent and perform works of righteousness (saving ordinances and obedience to them).

I think all too often we assume that the majority of mankind will just not be able to bring themselves to repent and show obedience to Christ and become part of his fold and be saved. And, in doing this we also assume that Christ in his mercy will save them from being hewn down and cast into the fire because of our false assumption that they aren't satan's either.

I think that the doctrine is clear, but strict, that "all men" must be changed and become saints through Christ or they must be consigned to that awful and miserable hell forever!

Doug Towers said...


From my reading D&C 76 presents a lot of things like Terrestials who didn't accept the gospel here but accept it later, who won't go to where Christ and Heavenly Father are. And stuff like that. How does you concept fit in with this?

Rob Osborn said...

My concept of this is that logically they (the terrestrials) have accepted the gospel and have repented and are baptized individuals (see section 138). The implications of coarse are that "all" who are begotten (baptized) through christ are sons and daughters in the Celestial Kingdom. When a person is baptized, they are "born again into the kingdom of heaven" (Moses 6:59) D&C 25:1 states quite specifically that to those who receive his gospel are sons and daughters in his kingdom meaning the Celestail Kingdom. This stands to reason then that the dead who repent, both the rebellious who knew and those who knew not, and receive his gospel are baptized and born again into the kingdom of heaven.

I firmly believe that The Terrestrial Kingdom is the earth during it's existance throughout the millennial reign of Christ. I also believe that all of us who were able to prove ourselves faithful of the Telestial Kingdom (the lone and dreary world in which we now live) will be granted to move on up to the Terrestrial Kingdom and further prove ourselves until we can at last be brought back into the presence of God in the Celestial Kingdom. This is the teaching the temple teaches and I believe it to be quite sound.

I do not believe in eternal telestial and terrestrial kingdoms as the temple teaches that those two kingdoms have a purpose and an end. I further believe that Once the Celestial Kingdom is established (after millennium) that Christ will sit upon his throne in "that kingdom" never to go out and rule in or over a lesser kingdom again.

Doug Towers said...


Just to qualify your thoughts. You are saying that because the temple presents an end to the Telestial kingdom on earth when Christ comes, that this is universal? That there will be no Telestial kingdom ever again?

And if so, is this your feelings of the Terrestial, that the temple presenting that it ends on earth because the earth will be renewed and become the Celestial kingdom, means an end to the Terrestial kingdom from that time henceforth?

Doug Towers said...


My last comment is a question. Is this what you believe.

Rob Osborn said...

For "us", yes, the Telestial and Terrestrial "worlds" have an end. The purpose of the Terrestrial Kingdom/world is to perfect and prepare all of the children Christ saves to enter back into the Fathers presence when the earth turns from it's terrestrial state to it'e Celestial/heavenly state.

If you will notice that in section 76:106-107, it mentions that Christ will have perfected his work and present it to the Father spotless. This means that he will present the kingdom of god on earth at the end of the millennium to the father spotless (holy). The spotless are all the people Christ saves. This is in direct reference back to verses 41-43. Verses 41-43 state specifically that all those who Christ saves will be cleansed through his atonement by obedience to the gospel, they all will be spotless. These spotless people include all of god's children except for the sons of perdition.

There is only one thing that keeps us from entering back into and living in our fathers presence and that is our carnal worldy fallen states- our sinful states. If we are all cleansed through Christ and receive a remission of our sins we become spotless- holy without spot. We will then be ready to enter back into the Celestial kingdom of our god.

The teaching that we currently have does not and cannot explain this that I described above which is true. We all know that obedience to the gospel is the ticket to the Celestial Kingdom, period! We also know that disobedience to this plan continually, leads only and always to damnation. Now we cannot suppose that the two lower kingdoms are kingdoms of damnation like BRM taught. This false teaching is taught in the church to try to explain the many passages of "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he who believes not shall be damned"- meaning that damnation must occur in the two lower kingdoms then. That is a false and utterly wrong doctrine.

So if we just focus in on the meaning of 76:41-43, we can learn that all the saved are cleansed from all of their sins. This only happens through the ordinance of baptism, there is no other way! And if one is baptized, they are born again into the kingdom of heaven- the Celestial Kingdom. This words saves/saved in verses 42-43 is the same word as is used in the 3rd article of faith to mean that all mankind may be "saved" by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

To summarize- The Telestial Kingdom is right now. It will pass away and be quickened by the glory of Jesus Christ to the state of the Terrestrial Kingdom. This kingdom will last a 1000 years and then pass away again and then be quickened by the glory of the Father into the celestial Kingdom. All those who have endured and become part of the "perfected" will be able to remain on the earth eternally- this is Christ's work as is spoken of in verses 41-43 and in 107. The rest will be "cast off" away from the earth, these are the sons of perdition.

One of the problems we have is that Joseph Smith taught early in the church that one could be saved after judgment without baptism into the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms. Later on in his life after the temple endowment was revealed, he taught that unless a man shows obedience to the gospel (is baptized) he must abide in hell without salvation. Early wording of the endowment ceremony taught that the procedure of advancing through the kingdoms was the plan of salvation. This teaching was later dropped for time constraints. But we all know that the endowment ceremony is the plan of salvation, and that each one of us must pass through each one before entering back into the Fathers presence. We are also taught that anyone who does not fulfill all of these covenants will be in Satan's power.

Doug Towers said...


You quote many verses generally relating to judgement. But only one place in the Scriptures goes into actual detail. And that is D&C 76. It was given for the specific purpose of making this particular subject clearer.

In regard Telestials it says,
"These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial." D&C 76:84-86

This speaks of a future event. With Telestial beings. It states that the Telestials will not recieve of God's fulness in the eternal world. But that they will only have the Holy Spirit through the administration of a co-existing terrestial kingdom.

Rob Osborn said...

Have you ever wondered why the parallels between what is spoken and our world right now? Could Joseph of possibly seen in the vision different states of our earth and it's inhabitants in it's continuence and of perhaps not realized it but thought instead it was several different planets? This is perhaps what I believe. I say this because things don't add up given all the information.

As we have discussed before, the Terrestrial people will be on the earth during the millennium. What exactly are they doing? And why are they still there on the earth when Christ presents the earth and it's inhabitants to the father "spotless"?

Why is it that there is a parallel between "heirs of salvatiuon" mentioned in verse 88 and D&C 7:6 where it states that there are angels who minister to us right now who are "heirs of salvation"?

Why are the Terrestrial as spoken of in section 76 not part of the firstborn if we know that they too will be baptized and born again which is the very process for becoming a member of the church of the firstborn?

Why are the sons of perdition mentioned when talking of the Telestial beings (verse 103, see cross references). Certainly the sons of perdition aren't futurally saved from satan on a glorious world are they?

Why does the temple call our world we now live in both the Telestial kingdom and the Telestial world? This is the same language as used in Section 76. How is it that one can either receive eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom or be cast out into outer darkness (see my latest post over on my blog)?

I think the angel was trying to show Joseph Smith in the vision that people, even rebellious and wicked people will be able to advance and progress and that we shouldn't try to classify people from our point of view into different heavens. Jesus Christ always taught that there was only one kingdom that we get saved into and if not saved- then damned.

Doug Towers said...


If I want to take a long trip, I need to baptise my fuel tank with gas/petrol. But that doesn't get me there without a lot of other things. Someone could rightly say that to get there I have to fill up my fuel tank. But we can't take that as an absolute.

In my life I have been in the Telestial Kingdom, the Terrestial Kingdom, and I now feel in the Celestial Kingdom. Inside of me. Is the Kindom of God in one place? Is it only at one time? Kingdoms are relevant to the inhabitants. If the majority are telestial in make-up then the world is telestial as a generalisation. Etc. Adam fell, and thus the world became telestial. It was the change in them that brought the change in world. Those in the millenium will obviously, therefore, mostly be terrestial in nature.

Why consider throwing parts of D&C 76 out the window when it is the only specific direct revelation on the subject that we have?

D&C 76:103 doesn't relate to the Sons of Perdition, as I read it. Verse 106 states that these people will have an end to their hell.

D&C 76:83 states in regard the Telestials, "These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit".

So this can't be speaking of any of the Sons of Perdition. This rules out the world now.

Rob Osborn said...

Verse 103, according to how I see it does refer to the sons of perdition. It is a word grouping that refers to those who die the second death. The wording is almost identical to D&C 63:17, so much so, that it is probably talking of the same group.

Verse 106 can be meant to read that they suffer there until they are brought out of that hell to come back into the presence of god to be judged. They will probably be cast out after that seeing as they are enemies.

Verse 83 is hard to understand. Does it mean that they did not deny it after receiving it, or does it mean that they just never denied it because they never received it? I think that it must mean that they did not deny it after receiveing it, otherwise how could you deny something you never received in the first place. If this be true, then we are talking about different groups of people in verses 82-88.

Some of these will be thrust down to hell, while others will be ministered to by holy angels. Some will of never have received the gospel, while others are sons of perdition and won't be resurrected until the last resurrection.

Let us look for a moment at the Terrestrial to see if this claim of different groups being talked about holds up.

Verse 72 tells of the group who "died without law". This to me means that they never heard the prophets, or/and, are little children or handicapped people who never fell under eternal law. Then in verse 73 we are told of the group who are in spirit prison. This group includes all those who died in their sins (under law) having either rejected the prophets or not listening to the holy ghost and living in sinful ways.

Now from these two verses alone, we can be assured that they obviously can't be talking of the same group of people, otherwise you would have a contradiction of a person who both died without law and at the same time that same person will of died inside of the law having rejected the prophets (D&C 138:29). So I believe that it is very possible that Joseph is just transcribing what he is actually seeing- different groups or categories of people on the earth at different times. If he was not told of the specific timeframes it would of been impossible for him to have known.

Rob Osborn said...


Also compare D&C 76:72 with Moroni 8:22 and tell me what you think. I think they very well could be talking of the same group.

Doug Towers said...


D&C 76:103 is a continuation from verse 98, which specifically states Telestial.

D&C 76:73 is merely enlargening the group spoken of in verse 72. They both belong to the same group, even if they aren't the same people.

In Moroni 8:22 his focus is on little children. In D&C 76:72 his focus is on everyone. When reading any scripture you must take into account who is speaking, and to whom.

D&C 76 is the section solely focused on what we are discussing.

Rob Osborn said...

Verse 103 is talking about the sons of perdition- the liars, sorcerers, adulterers & whoremongers. These all will have to wait until after Christ has perfected his work until their resurrection. They will come forth in the resurrection of the unjust. To be an unjust soul is to be found ineligable through the atonement for a remission of sins. These remain in their filthy states and are cast out to outer darkness. You will notice that verses 50-112 describe "every" individual who has ever walked the face of the earth.

Let us look at the Celestial for a minute. The Celestial are all those whose names are written in heaven. Verse 68 describe these individuals as having their names written in heaven (book of life). The implication here is that if your name is not found written in the book of life, then you are cast out into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. This is from Revelations 20:12-15. We should not assume that John is just speaking about "some" of the people here. He is speaking about every single soul. We should not also assume that this revelation is an untrue doctrine in light of section 76. Instead we should assume that These passages in Rev. 20 are the truth.

The book of life is the same as the "book of the names of the sanctified" as is mentioned in D&C 88:2. This book and the names therein belong only to the Celestial world. This gives added correlation that either my theory is true, or the passages in Revelations are false.

The problem with our doctrine is that the plan of salvation is laid out very very clear in scripture. But because of our interpretation of one single idea from section 76, we then assume that the plan laid out so clearly in past times is no longer relevent. Like Mosiah 27:25-27- it is either all true, or it is all untrue. If we say that it is partially true, what part is that? It can't be. The way the passage is laid out, it does not leave room to add more to it that would change it's doctrine.

Rob Osborn said...


One other thing I failed to mention. The sanctified are those who are spoken of in 76:41-42 which are "all" except for the sons of perdition. So if "all" except for perdition, are sanctified and "saved", are their names written in the book of life?

Doug Towers said...


D&C 76:89-90 "And thus we saw in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it."

That doesn't sound like this earth, now, that he is speaking of.

D&C 76:98-103 "And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another - some of Christ and some of John and some of Moses, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and aduterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

A "; means the sentence and subject are still going. Every time it says "these" it is continuing the conversation proceeding, unless it expresses that it has changed group. Which it doesn't.

Rev 20 may discuss the issue briefly, but D&C 76 has heaps on it, and explains it in full depth.

Rob Osborn said...

Why could the glory not be this earth? If you remove the veil and see all of the glory (ministering angels of light and truth) being made amnifest unto the children of god it would be totally astonishing and eye opening.

So what about the whole book of life issue?

Our current understanding of section 76 calls for an entire review of all scripture as it tends to rewrite the plan of salvation! There are literally hundreds of scriptures that spell out the plan of salvation. Our interpretation of 76 though says that the Book of mormon and it's explanation of the gospel can't be true or so far incomplete that we should discard it when discussing salvation.

Every scripture outside of 76 I could bring up to prove my point will always get shot down by the general church view of section 76. I literally have hundreds of scriptures, flowcharts, diagrams & essays that I have written over the years that point to either a saved in heaven or cast out doctrine. There is just no room for bringing salvation and glory to the unrepentant. The gospel is the law of the Celestial Kingdom. Obedience to it enables one to be saved. Disobedience to the gospel only leads to hell and not glory.

Everyone also wants to discount the temple endowment ceremony where it talks of this earth being the "telestial Kingdom" and the "telestial world". People say that it is either not really meaning our earth or that the telestial world we now live on is different than the telestial world spoken of in the scriptures. Why? Who says? The scriptures certainly makes no disctinction one way or the other.

So does our whole model of the plan of salvation as presented in the Book of Mormon fail under scrutiny of section 76?

Doug Towers said...


The conflict you are having trouble with is the same one that exists between the OT and NT. Look at the horrendous God of the OT. While Christ used this same concept on the Jews, he didn't with those who followed him around. Look at the God of the Sermon on the Mount. Does this mean that God changed? Does it mean that the OT is all false?

I told my children that they must NEVER touch power points/sockets. Yet as they got older I told one of my kids to turn it on (we have switchable wall sockets). And eventually I taught them how to install one. D&C 76 is the latter. It conflicts with the more basic and simple doctrine espoused in the texts you have collected. It doesn't make the texts false. It just shows how simple they were. If you were going to teach your son how to change a tire/tyre would you start teaching him about how rubber is made and moulded? No. You keep it simple and stick to the current lesson. So are the scriptures you quote. D&C 76 is how to mould rubber and make a tyre/tire, and then gets to how to change one. Of course apparent conflict will arise. As surely as the God of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount, and the God of the OT conflict.

You exress that you have spent a lot of time on this subject. But the one part that is missing from your research is heart. This concept you are considering is heartless. Search your heart and it will show you it is false. Let your heart do the research for a change. This is what I have expressed in this post. What is your purpose in doing this research? Are you trying to prove the love of God? Does this God sound nice to you? The loving Father that Christ taught?

Rob Osborn said...

My purpose in doing this research is that I have had several dreams where I have seen resurrected family members in the Celestial Kingdom. They always give me a hug or a look eye to eye that is a look or feeling of the greatest treasure there could possibly be.

Some of these individuals are relatives that live lives outside of the harmony of the church. they have also rejected the gospel here in mortality, but they are there in Heaven dressed in white raiment.

It never really made sense until the untimely death of my Aunt and was soon followed by the death of my mother who was a sister to the aunt. At both funerals I was given the knowledge that everyone who paid tribute to the deceased would end up being saved in the Celestial heaven. This caused me to greatly marvel. That was a year ago. Since then I have been blessed abundantly where I was going wrong in all of my gospel study work. I was shown a few of my mistakes, and now that they are corrected, everything is beginning to mesh together like a cogwheel.

The problem is though, I have all of this valuable information, and no one seems to listen! They always just say- "ya, but have ya read section 76, it seems to say otherwise".

I have been shown that people I would of never thought of changing will change, albeit won't happen until the other side. But they will still make a miraculous change and go on to inherit the Celestial Kingdom! That I cannot deny. The scriptures even testify that unless they are sons of perdition they will inherit the Celestial kingdom.

Have you had a chance to view the whole "book of life" issue yet? I am very curious to your insight there.

Doug Towers said...


I have been feeling throughout our discussions on this that there must be some family reason involved. I thought it may have been your wife's family. As you expressed things that sounded as if you were saying they weren't all members. But I see now.

I don't dispute that people truly changing will go to the Celestial kingdom. God is not some kind of weird being that gets his kicks from dooming his enemies and getting revenge. This is the OT God. Christ cut through all that and taught the loving Father principle.

But, while saying this, bear in mind that if people put off repentance and change until later, how many will actually make that change? If a person is sincere about changing why don't they do it now? This is the other side of the coin. Yet this still doesn't detract from the point that repentance is AVAILABLE afterward. And some will obviously take that up or why have temple ordinances at all. I would not say that D&C 76 opposes this idea.

In regard the Book of Life
I once had a friend tell me that he believed the book from which we are judged is in our head. I thoroughly believe him now. And have for years.

The book in heaven would be symbolic of the point that the judgement will be true and divine. Yet the books on earth are symbolic of the fact that those things taught in the church, that we go against also stand as condemnation. This last paragraph was revealed to me as I just wrote it.

Rob Osborn said...

Hum, my last entry disappeared, I hate when that happens.

Anyway, It seems as if we both agree that those who do change and repent and show obedience to the gospel, whether here or in the spirit world will go to the Celestial Kingdom. Where we seem to disagree is that I believe almost everyone will change and be born again and you seem to believe that the majority of man will just not have the desire to change and therefor will never change, always comfortable where they are at.

Is this assumption correct?

Doug Towers said...


I don't see it as an assumption for 2 reasons. Firstly, my way of reading D&C 76. Secondly, many talks with Heavenly Father on this very issue. My concerns are as yours. I have been concerned that the right thing will happen for everyone. He has assured me that it will. And explained his concerns. He feels it all far more than we do (and that is a gross understatement). But he has explained and shown me how it all works. He has explained that everyone just finally settles somewhere between dark and light.

While I know this is only my personal testimony, hopefully it may give you some degree of peace in this matter.

Rob Osborn said...

So on this dark to light scale you propose, where or what is the cutoff for the Celestial? Is it baptism? Or is it what? That is really what I would like your opinion on. What would be the definate cutoff?

Doug Towers said...


The cutoff point is inside you. If your heart can and would love to stand in God's presence then you will. But, in saying this, let me add that it requires a lot of love etc, to be able to stand in his presence.

It is an accurate statement to say that baptism is into the Celestial Kingdom. But that goes on the assumption that the baptism is a true and full baptism of the heart. If all evil intent is washed from your heart, and a new person born. One that follows all things that Heavenly Father is asking us to follow and put off all "sins of admission". Then this person will be in the Celestial Kingdom.

Rob Osborn said...

I agree with you on that point. we "truly" must be born again. Willing to submit to "all" that God commands in order to inherit the celestial Kingdom.

True repentance and true baptism is the cutoff point for the Celestial. We seem to both agree on that (halleluiah)!

But I further believe that true repentance and true baptism is also the cutoff for being saved eternally from Satan's grasp. The scriptures even testify to this truth I believe. This is where we differ I guess. I am going to do some more study on this topic because I believe that section 76 is just too vague and has too many loose ends to be the end-all say on the matter.