Monday, March 17, 2008

Are we really God, as the Catholics/Protestants Propose?

Catholicism/Protestantism complains because we say that we can become Gods. Yet their doctrine says that we are God himself right now, and will continue to be forever. Additionally their God is some kind of masochist who is going to send some of himself to hell forever!

As LDS we know that each intelligence has existed forever. No one can make intelligences (D&C 93:29). We are an intelligence inside our spirit body, which is inside our physical body. Yet this isn't what is believed by others.

The Catholic/Protestant version of our existence.

They say that God is not only the inventor of all things but he is in all things and is all things. They say that God is the inventor of our minds: We wouldn't be thinking if he wasn't there. We wouldn't exist. So examining the logic of this it ends up being that we are, in fact, God! And he is us!

According to the claim what are we? We are nothing other than that which is God. God not only invented our thinking, but if we can't think without him, and he invented the ability to think, then our thinking must be him thinking (remember that nothing exists that isn't made and maintained by him, and that he created the bounds in which I think). I can't think if he isn't there, so I have no independant thought. It must be remembered in trying to understand this that nothing exists but God and that which exists by him. Therefore everything existing is him. There is nothing else. No wonder the Catholic/Protestant god is so schizophrenic.

And as all matter is invented by him, continues to exist because of him and he is in all things, then this body I have is also him. The same would have to be said for my spirit body.

This, of course, would leave us with Satan being God too. Man, are they for real?

Us being God. Hmmm.... I don't think so! The stupidity is that they would SAY that they don't think so either. Yet that is the reality of their claim. Back to the Bible people, I think that requires a lot more reading.


Anonymous said...

Hi Doug ... how does your faith play into your lifestyle? I just saw one of your modeling posts and I'm dumbfounded. You look so manly yet you prefer men to women? I'm not judging you, dear--just asking. Guess I'm shocked as I've always been drawn to the atheltic (married one) type--especially those who are "gym rats." Now I wonder if my ex was secretly into men as well. Thanks ... Jeannie

Doug Towers said...


Ha ha.

If you want my opinion on homosexuality then I suggest you read -

yeti said...

I wouldn't draw that conclusion.
If God madeHumans from nothing, that does not mean he made them from himself, but that he made them from nothing.
I believe in a way God is very independant from him creation. His well being is not based on us. I also believe he has a great ability to love and care. I think he can get sad when we are hurt. And he longs to be compassionate with us.

Doug Towers said...


I agree with most of what you have said. I am only expressing the Protestant version of God. Not my own.

I know that nothing is created from nothing. The Bible doesn't say that God made us from nothing.

But that isn't the point of what I'm saying. My point is that if all things exist by God. And if nothing can exist without God. And if God made all things from nothing. And if I can't think without God. Then without God we don't exist. Therefore all things must be God. It is a bit of fundamental logic.

yeti said...

right. I think something can be created by God, and yet have the ability to think by its self. like i was created by my parents,but i can think for myself, and if they died I would not cease to exist.
you say you express the protestant's view of God, yet I know not a single protestant who holds that view (that God is no-emotional or feeling). Maybe it would be better if you didn't clump all protestants into your understanding of their God?

Doug Towers said...


It is true that if I ask a Protestant does God love us (for example) they will say, "yes." But start getting into a God with emotions like us and you find a whole new thing.

They deny that God and us have the same feelings. They say that his expressions in the Bible are to give us the best understanding that we can have as people.

If you quote Genesis's statement that we are created in the image and likeness of God it is smoothed over to make it something that comes out nothing like what it says.

These two words used denote that we are like God in what is reflected physically - a mirror image. And that we are like God in the phantom - that which can't be seen. Yet this doctrine isn't taught in Protestantism either.

Consequently my discussions of God with Protestants has lead to a concept of a God that is nothing like us in either way.

In regard our parents. Our parents aren't claimed to have formed us from nothing, at their whim. Or maintaining us by their whim - that if they went away all trace of us would be gone.

Your latter point in regard establishing Protestant doctrine is very true. It is a bit like establishing theory science's doctrine. A person can only go on what the majority expresses.

Anonymous said...

I personally see their view of God as a schizophrenic. Multiple personalities, praying to himself and speaking of himself in the third person (the trinity) Prior to receiving THE gospel I did not like God. I did not enjoy being an after thought, created for the enjoyment of some creepy, all.powerful being who decided 1/3 of his personality would be born of himself to earth to die for my sins.
Just my opinion.

yeti said...

Doug, you miss judge us.

Because protestants believe God can create out of nothing, we do not believe that he created us out of himself. You say God could not have created out of nothing, so in our view he must have created out of himself. That tries to understand our belief while denying have of it. You don't have to believe that God creates out of nothing, but that doesn't mean you can take that belief away from us.

Doug Towers said...


I agree with you 100%.


The problem with the Catholic / Protestant version of God is not just that he can't create out of nothing. It is that he is in all things and through all things and nothing exists without him. Therefore he must be all things.

And I haven't said you can't have the belief. That is your free choice. What I'm demonstrating is that it has to be false.

yeti said...

when protestants, or the Bible for that matter, say that God is in all things, they by no means think that he is all things. Like a spirit can dwell in a physical body without making that thing part of the spirit, so God, in spirit I would suggest, can dwell in the world without the world being God.
Can you understand how someone can believe then that God (as understood by a protestant) can be in everything while being distinct from those things?

Doug Towers said...


I know what Protestants believe, as I was brought up well and truly indocrinated in those beliefs. 3 different churches each Sunday, eventually. But even when 3 I was going to 2. At 4 I dedicated myself to become a missionary for the rest of my life.

What did I find they all taught me? They taught me that God filled the universe and that he magically puffed it up out of thin air. That he maintains it by being it and it being him. I was told that if I looked at a tree I was looking at God. Nothing of a hidden spirit.

Where you got this hidden spirit idea I don't know, but no Protestant church taught that to me.

Doug Towers said...


I will email you as you requested. I just removed your email address to keep it from getting junk mail.

yeti said...

I grew up going to protestant Churches 3 of them. I've gone to two protestant Bible schools. I have learned that while God created out of nothing (not quite out of thin air, because that suggests he created out of something. But also not out of himself.) and sustains life (without him there would be no life) He is not creation, nor is creation him. He is to be praised, a tree is not. I guess we could then conclude that

yeti said...

... one cannot lump all protestant beliefs together.

Doug Towers said...


Then why did so many Protestant teachers tell me that in seeing things I was really seeing God?

It is true that since Protestantism has lost numbers they have watered down doctines to become extremely flexable. Yet this doesn't change the logic of what I've stated, however you wish to put it.

You are obviously missing the logic of it. If you haven't caught it yet then I don't see that you will ever understand. But I'm wondering whether that it is that you are trying not to.

It is an obvious equation.

The Protestant teaching is _

God - invented all things from nothing.

God - If he leaves all things will disappear.

God - sustains all things.

God - must therefore be all things.

It doesn't matter how you imagine God, this is the logical conclusion to the Protestant concept.

yeti said...

I just don't think it is fair to apply your logic to the faith of someone else.

Doug Towers said...


When Jesus spoke to the Scribes, Pharisees and/or Lawyers he pointed out that their ideas were not logical. He showed that the Scriptures and/or life didn't support their views. This he did to help others know the truth.

He didn't conclude that he was being nasty by doing this. He realised that it was the right thing to do.

And Paul went to the Jews and reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

Again he has not concluded it to be a mean or nasty thing to do.

I would not be doing people a favor to leave them in ignorant worship of a fake god invented by man. As surely as all prophets and apostles throughout time have tried to help those ill-informed in regard some subject, so do I, with a full knowledge that I am doing as my Savior does.

Saying the right name and reading the right book doesn't make a person's religion OK. It has to be true.

yeti said...

I guess what I see you doing I've seen a lot of people do with LDS beliefs and I don't think it is a fair approach. They might say:
If something is perfect it will have no need to change.
LDS beliefs show that God has/is changed.
Therefore the LDS God is not perfect.
If something is not Perfect, it should not be worshiped.
Therefore the LDS God Should not be worshiped.
If something is not perfect it cannot be God.
therefore the LDS God is not a God.

That is taking ones understanding of another's doctrine and twisting it. I guess what I think is that your reasoning is not the measuring rod for the validity of someone else's belief. I am not suggesting that there is no measuring rod, rather that the measuring rod is not your rationality. Is that a fair statement?

Doug Towers said...


I have no problem with people analysing what I believe. I'm quite happy to discuss with anyone the things I believe.

I have had someone argue some of our beliefs some months ago. Recently he got back and said he was joining the church. So I have no problem with sensible discussion. That way we (hopefully) will learn from each other.

In regard your argument about perfection and God:

Being perfect, Biblically, refers to someone who doesn't sin or transgress. Such a being can go on to learn to be a doctor without then being more perfect. If you don't use the Biblical standard then you are using the world's standard, and it is contrary to true religion.

I should add that if you judge God by such a standard then the Protestant/Catholic god comes under the same condemnation. Part of him came to earth and grew in wisdom and stature - a change. Jesus Christ marvelled at the faith of the Roman. A demonstration that he was not omniscient then. He died. Another change. A resurrection. Another change.

Yet the change that affected people the most was that he supposedly changed his mind about what he wanted us to do and not do. This happened around the time of Christ's ministry on earth. Apparently one night people went to bed and it was a sin to eat pig, but the next morning it wasn't anymore.

Two Jews owned a pig between them. One decided to eat his half one night. The next day god changed the rules. The next night the other man ate his half of the pig. Both are oblivious to the change in doctrine. The first man goes to hell for disobeying the current rules in god's mind at the time. The other one goes to heaven because it wasn't a sin anymore.

If we use no judgement then we cannot judge between good and evil. The rod I use is the 3 members of the Godhead and the Scriptures. And things like this just demonstrate why such judgement is important.

yeti said...

If I tried to suggest a different definition of perfection, you would disagree. fair enough.
If I try to suggest a biblical understanding of God being all in all, you hold to the one you you've decided all protestants believe in. This doesn't make sense to me.

Doug Towers said...


In regard perfection let's see what the Bible says. Does the Bible support the idea that people can be perfect also?

Gen 6:9 tells us that Noah was just and perfect during his lifetime.

Job 1:1&8 informs us that Job was also perfect. Job 2:3, Job 8:20, Job 9:20-21, Job 22:3.

Psa 32:7 informs us that perfect people have peace.

Psa 101:6 has God talking about perfect people.

Pro 2:21 has God giving promises to those who are perfect.

Pro 11:5 more stuff on perfection.

Then we have the obvious one where Jesus Christ himself tells us all that we can be perfect, AFTER he has just explained how (Matt 5:48).

1 Cor 10:3 informs us that we can overcome any sin.

And so it goes on. Perfection is something God has and some of us have.

John tells us that those born of God don't sin (1 Jn 5:18, etc).

Obiously you have a different interpretation of perfect. So show me your Bible references to demonstrate that man can't become perfect at any stage.

In regard God and what he is; if you have Bible references that demonstrate a trinity then show them. Else explain your God in CLEAR terms and then Biblically prove it.

yeti said...

I am not trying to argue with you about the biblical view of perfection. I am really not trying to argue with you at all, so mind not. I fear I cannot articulate my point.

Doug Towers said...


This is the major problem with Protestantism. It purports that it only follows the Bible, but can't support it's ideas from that book.

Either that or it takes some Scripture texts and ignores the rest with no reason.

Christ and Paul present that God is perfectly understandable. So why is it that Protestants can't explain him when asked to speak in plain terms?

Protestants and Catholics can't even get past the first verse in the Bible without 2 major flaws. Firstly they interpret the word "Gods" and change it to say "God." Then they take the word "create" (which we know means to make something out of existing materials) and claim it means to make things out of nothing.

You wonder why I point these errors out. But truth isn't what we want it to be. It is what is eternally. It is unalterable. And I attempt to serve others by showing these things to them.

My desire to save others from hell or not acheiving their best, doesn't make me their enemy.

yeti said...


Wishing you all the best in that journey.