Sunday, May 13, 2012

What it Was Like in the Pre-existence

*NOTE* Firstly I should point out that the church has almost no officially stated doctrine on the pre-existence. Let me additionally state that this post, therefore, has a lot of heavy ideas presented in it, particularly as it gets further into the subject. I have cut this down somewhat from what I originally planned on posting, to try and soften it. If you find yourself overwhelmed by the different ideas presented (which you probably will at some point), then stop and come back to it later when you feel you have absorbed what you have read so far. It is better that you treat it as a wild theory that you can consider over time and using the Holy Ghost as guide. Though let me assure you that I know these things are true.

Many have posed the question of what we did from day to day and what were we like in the pre-existence. I have posted on the subject before, mostly from a basic Scriptural position. So if you are interested in the Scriptural backing for some of these ideas I'd suggest a read of that post; which was posted in May 2007. This is an extension of the subject that goes well beyond the original. Happy reading.

For those non-members reading who don't know what the pre-existence is, it is about the time before you came to this earth and were born as a mortal. This time is generally forgotten by you during this earth life.

While we talk of the pre-existence as if it was one event, it actually was made up of two parts. For eternity we have existed as an intelligence only. Then eventually our Heavenly Parents turned up and provided a spirit body to those who were prepared to go along with it. This latter body is made of spirit matter. Spirit matter is more refined and pure and therefore harder for our natural eyes to see it. We are better off to look at it with our spirit eyes. If we get into sufficient of a spiritual state we can do this.

So let's look at the life of your average eternal intelligence. Great multitudes of intelligences existed. Numbers beyond comprehension. Yet all were at varying levels of intelligence. For example Jesus Christ (Jehovah) was the most advanced within the enormous area eventually covered by Heavenly Father in his expansion here. This is why he was the first born spirit of our Heavenly Parents. Next came those other spirits showing the greatest potential. These were termed sons and daughters of the morning because they were born the earliest. Additionally there were those who were born with spirit bodies as a lesser species, such as grass or ants, to their respective Heavenly Parents.

For some reason, unknown to me, there are those intelligences who chose to advance throughout eternity and those who just didn't. And there were varying degrees of such, of course. This fulfils the natural and obvious law of eternity which says that where something can be up, something else can, and will, be down.

An intelligence is as much comprehended as seen, in that it has no discernible external shape. An intelligence isn't made of matter and can't be either made or destroyed (however there is some debate about whether it can be destroyed by its own actions). An intelligence has an enormous size, yet can fit even in a baby. It isn't affected by dimensions in the way physical or spirit matter objects are. It is interesting that a small child walking past is as full an intelligence as the child's mother and father walking with them. Heavenly Father has an intelligence that is far bigger than anybody else. Jesus Christ isn't far behind.

You can discern the fire of truth in a good intelligence. This can actually be seen spiritually. This fire was demonstrated at Pentecost, for example. And in the eyes of the Savior, as seen by several people in Scripture. The righteous are said to dwell in everlasting burnings (Isa 33:14-15). This spiritual fire is demonstrated when we feel the Holy Spirit give us the burning of truth inside our spirit.

An intelligence remembers its existence. It hasn't forgotten anything. But when it was placed in a spirit body after conception by our Heavenly Mother and Father the new spirit body part will eventually forget its intelligence only pre-existence. The demands of having a spirit body, and the new reality of it, makes the intelligence create a new awareness within itself (the intelligence time section isn't heard very well). Then eventually as we have grown and learnt enough as a spirit being, we receive a physical body by the same birth process, through mortal parents. Once again the demands of the more obvious, now physical, takes precedence over the spirit body time and the intelligence only time. Thus we eventually come to forget, in our mortal section, the time as a pre-existent spirit also. It goes from being a reality, as a baby (babies see spirits), to just being a dream and then forgotten in the mortal section. However portions can come back all of a sudden or it can be remembered with sufficient need to remember and you seeking it.

As the new intelligence section, created during our physical body time, has to communicate to the physical body to get it to function, it focuses itself in the head. This way it can create electrical impulses in the brain to get our body to do as it chooses. We don't need to use much of the brain matter to get our bodies to do all necessary functions. It learns this in the time in the womb while growing. As there is more space to fit the spirit body in the central torso area, it resides there; and we talk about heart feelings and burning in our bosom.

The intelligence only portion doesn't actually need a place to reside as such. It is more a case of finding it deep within our being. You need to go down beyond the spirit and find it down there.
An intelligence is capable of thinking at speeds that make our fastest computers look like they are standing still. I believe the possible reasons why we mostly don't think at this speed is either laziness, seeing no point in it or becoming too used to only thinking at somewhere just ahead of the speed our mouth moves at to talk. Of course, it could be a mixture of all three of those.

So what did intelligences do before getting a spirit body? We found suitable companions for our existence style (as we do now). For higher intelligences these included intelligences of both genders, as friends, rather than just those of the same gender. Because the opposite gender sees things differently, hearing their opinions creates a greater balance of ideas. Also a greater balance in emotional feelings. Some sort to be one with each other, by moving together as close as possible to feel and express love. No doubt this was also giving a sense of security of friendships. Males and females have always been different. God chose those with female inclinations to be female and those with male inclinations to be male. Naturally, these inclinations come in varying degrees from person to person. God uses these same genders when we are born in this mortal life. Thus we don't have a woman born in a man's body, as some have been deceived to believe. We are still an intelligence. In fact we are the same basic intelligence, regardless of our experiences. Yet we grow as an individual intelligence through our experiences. We could sense one another's presence by scanning out with our minds. In fact we could find one another by using this process. We used mental communication.

Some have concluded that our intelligence is made of many smaller intelligences collected together. This theory could be brought about by the fact that our spirit body (as also our physical body) is actually made of particles with intelligences in them. Also that our intelligence is capable of scanning out for great distances (as God does) could confuse people into thinking there must be lots of intelligences. However this may just demonstrate that the size an intelligence can expand itself to depends upon how intelligent it is. Because particles have intelligence and we can scan out, those creating could get particles to move: By appealing to those intelligences with love.

Heavenly Father is also an intelligence as we are, yet he has grown in his good attributes and knowledge to become what he is today. He also has a spirit body and physical body that is resurrected. This is his intension for us.

When we look at activities that were available, during the intelligence only time, we have such things as pattern finding. While no eyes were available, by scanning we could detect objects and their size and placement. Then finding patterns within the objects available can be fun. It's a bit like finding patterns on tiles for example. You can find diagonal or parallel lines between tiles of some color or shade etc. Also thought games can be played where clues are given. The list is almost endless with a bit of imagination and eternity to think of them in. Additionally, those thus inclined observed things about eternal laws and existence.

Don't forget; if you feel it is getting too heavy give it a break and think it through until you are ready to come back to it.

Moving on to the spirit body time we went through the time of forgetting. This meant that the intelligence section that we were then working in wasn't communicating with the original section sufficiently to create a being in perfect harmony with the original section. We go through a time in our lives like that after getting our physical bodies. The great majority never find perfect union between listening to both the spirit section's opinion (heart) and our physical section's opinions (mind) equally, let alone our intelligence section's opinions. This should be worked toward.

So getting back to the spirit body time; we begin to grow our spirit body and learn how to use our spirit limbs etc. The spirit body is much easier to manipulate than the physical body. We learnt how to make the particles travel extremely fast. And I mean extremely. Additionally to this, those with sufficient love began to learn how to move physical matter. As the basic particles have intelligences in them we can persuade them to move, through demonstrating love toward them. This was eventually, used by those thus inclined, in the creation process, under the direction of Jesus Christ. Our ability to move small amounts of matter, such as a mountain, were evidenced by Christ in saying that it required almost no faith at all to do such. Additionally, we have all learnt to create electrical pulses in our brains to get our body to move. This is a demonstration of the ability of our intelligence to manipulate matter.

We had things to learn that are unique to our spirit body. We had to learn to do the right things with ourselves. We continued on in friendships previously had (I feel God would see to that - my personal opinion). I also believe this of at least some within this earth life. Yet as we all had freedom of choice there were an enormous amount that eventually refused to come to earth. Some were concerned about the risk factor. This made Lucifer pose an impossible idea that he could make sure that all were saved. As freedom of choice is fundamental to the existence of all intelligences (even an ant) we cannot have a situation where we lose freedom of choice. Yet Lucifer was silly enough to believe this idea, along with so many that refused to come down. When we look at the vast numbers of people that have come down to these inhabited planets that were made around the same time as this one, we should remember that half that number (one third of those present during the spirit body time) followed Lucifer rather than Heavenly Father. That is a huge lot of spirits.

This informs us that being in Heavenly Father's presence doesn't automatically make us want to do what God says. Any more than we do with our earthly parents. (This shows the importance of us learning to see the value in following all the things the Savior taught) And it is obvious that while amongst those there were some that were strongly opposed to Heavenly Father, there would be a large variety of depth of interest. Some of that third are zealots, while others barely could care less: Just the same as those coming here to get a physical body. Jesus Christ was strongly supporting the idea while some of the two-thirds swang backwards and forwards on the idea until eventually going along with it. It took a lot of persuasion by Heavenly Father to get certain spirits to come. For example many required assurances that they wouldn't be placed with fathers such as Elijah or Abraham, whom they regarded as over-enthusiasts. Additionally there were those who realised that they were ridiculously unlikely to end up as a son of perdition if they couldn't be given the priesthood. Heavenly Father did all he could to end up with a good majority prepared to actually move forward rather that stay in their comfort zone.

I hope all have gained something from what I have written. For those who may feel I have said too much, I can assure you that there were many things that I have refrained from saying in those areas I felt could be too heavy. Yet it is a lot of ideas not usually spoken of.

In concluding this post let me restate, for the sake of non-members and new members, that the church has virtually NO declared doctrine on the pre-existence other than a small amount of the many things contained in the Standard Works of the church.

40 comments:

Alex Bramwell said...

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Doug Towers said...

Alex Bramwell

I don't believe in making money out of religion. The lines become too undefined.

Anonymous said...

Hi Doug,

I'm also LDS, and joined the church when I was 16. I'm 32 now and just moved to Utah 3 years ago from Australia. I don't know how else to contact you, but was wondering if you could please email me some more of your writings on the Pre-existence. I have received a lot of revelation on the same subject and it fits in-line with what you have said... Your words believe it or not, were a huge blessing for my wife and me. Thank you very much for your thoughts!

My name is David Bollard and my email is

djbollard2011@gmail.com

Thankyou

Doug Towers said...

David

A reply has been sent to your email address. If for some reason you haven't received it then let me know.

Anonymous said...

Hi Doug,
I know that it has been awhile since I have commented here at your blog but I am glad to read your posting on the pre-mortal existence. My email address is Swellguy123@aol.com Please send me any additional information that you have on this subject. Thanks Doug.
KH

Doug Towers said...

KH

A reply has been sent to your email address. If you don't receive it please inform me.

Anonymous said...

Doug,
I didn't receive any email from you. Please send again.

KH

Doug Towers said...

KH

My email to you came back with the following message.

"Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 5.7.1 Your mail could not be delivered because the
recipient is only accepting mail from specific email addresses. If you
feel you received this in error, please contact the recipient directly and
ask them to check their email settings."


Let me know when you wish me to re-send.

Anonymous said...

updated my mail settings. Please send thanks
KH

Anonymous said...

Hi Doug,

When will we remember the Pre-existence? And do you think it will be an "Ah ha" moment? Or maybe a gradual taking away of the veil from our minds.

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

That is an interesting question.

My guess (and it is purely that) is a mixture of both. If the knowledge just comes flooding back then it will be quite a shock for so many.

Anonymous said...

Hi Doug,
Will you please send me more of your writings on the Pre-existence..?
I have just stumbled across your blog and have enjoyed the reading
jo@flobuild.com.au

Thx

Jo
Australia

Doug Towers said...

Jo

Let me know if you haven't received an email within the week.

Anonymous said...

Matthew 7:15

I feel compelled to make a point here. I admire your zeal for the LDS church, but you have believed the lie from your church leaders from the beginning till now and accepted a false gospel and false christ. You have completely disregarded what the new testament tells about the historic Christ and who He is. You have believed the lie that makes him lower than He is and robs him of his Glory. He isnt a spirit child of a God who was once man or a spirit brother of Lucifer. He is God almighty and the second person of the trinity in biblical terms. Do you remember; "I and the Father are One" or have you forgotten? You dont know the real Jesus. I will lift you up to Jesus and hope and pray that you meet Him for real. The historical Jesus will change your life for forever. Once He has saved you by His grace and grace alone, He is not content to leave you where He.found you. Nice story by the way on pre existence. I defy you to line that story up with biblical truth. You wont find it. May Christ reveal Himself to you.

Dylan

Doug Towers said...

Dylan

Thanks for your input. I can sense your genuine concern.

In regard Matthew 7:15

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

I have heard this verse quoted to suggest that we reject all prophets as being false. But after saying this Christ then goes on to explain how to recognise false prophets _

"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree produces good fruit; but a corrupt tree produces evil fruit." Matthew 7:16-17

We are left to reason why would Christ tell us how to recognise true prophets from false prophets, unless true prophets are also to exist? This verse is letting us know that true prophets certainly should exist. We are then left to answer where these prophets are?

You feel that I have disregarded what the New Testament has said in regard a trinity. I was brought up believing in a trinity. I was a firm believer. It took much examination of the MANY New Testament texts disputing the idea. I even went to Protestant ministers to ask their opinion and defense of my belief in the trinity. Yet they could give none when these verses were stated. In spite of the overwhelming collection of chapters and verses that clearly disproved the trinity concept, I still awaited revelation before feeling confident enough to accept that the trinity was false.

You have quoted Christ saying that he and the Father are one. Yet Christ also prayed that his 12 apostles should be one with him and the Father: That they should all be one together. In fact Christ prayed that not only should the 14 of them be one but that all who come to hear of him through the preaching of the apostles should all be one with him and the Father.

"That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21

"Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For 'the two' He says, 'shall become one flesh'. But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." 1 Cor 6:16-17

John 17:12-17 has Jesus continuing to pray to the Father and say such things as "I kept them in Your name" and "Those whom You gave Me" and "But now I come to You" and "I have given them Your word" and "I do not pray that You" and "but that You" and "Sanctify them by Your truth" and "Your word is truth".

These statements continue to support the doctrine that Jesus isn't the actual Father at all. How can He come to himself? He is qualifying what He means in the prayer _ to Himself? Why a need to qualify a request in prayer to yourself? Surely you would know what you mean.

Matthew 20:23 _ "So He said to them, 'You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."

So the Father may see things differently from the Son in some aspects.

Doug Towers said...

Dylan

Matthew 26:39+42+44 _ "He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, 'O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.'

"Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, 'O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.'

"So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words."

In these verses Jesus is asking that He not have to do the atonement. He, of Himself, found it an enormously difficult thing to perform. But in spite of this He said to the Father that He was willing to suffer it (in obedience to the Father) if the Father really wanted Him to. Does this portray that Jesus is the Father?

Luke 22:43 _ "Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him."

This was at the time of the atonement in the garden, and He needed an angel to help Him. So let's get this straight in our minds: We have the God of the universe, who's holding everything together, needing an angel to give Him extra strength. Does this sound right to you? Is God a little short on strength? Yet clearly this is what we have here if we are to believe that Jesus and the Father are the one being. This presents a VERY human Jesus Christ. Not a God.

Matthew 27:46 _ "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' That is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'"

How does a trinitarian God, who is everywhere, leave himself?

Luke 23:46 _ "And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, 'Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit'. Having said this, He breathed His last."

He has said that his spirit is now going to God. How could a trinitarian spirit have not been with God?

I could go on endlessly with New Testament Scriptures demonstrating that Christ was speaking symbolically of the oneness of him and the Father. But I believe the next one says it all _

"And Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good? none is good, save one, that is, God." Luke 18:19

Christ has clearly declared that he is not God, declaring that God has attributes that he didn't have at that stage.

The New Testament declares that Christ is a spirit child of Heavenly Father. But I could go on forever with this. So hopefully you can look through some texts yourself and consider your thoughts further.

Some other references:-

1 Peter 3:22, 1 Peter 3:8, Galatians 3:28, Hebrews 2:11, 2 Corinthians 13:11, John 12:27-28, Acts 7:55-56, Revelation 3:21, 1 John 4:15, Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Mark 10:17-18, Matthew 4:1, Luke 3:22, John 4:19, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Ephesians 3:14

Anonymous said...

Hi Doug

I appreciate you being able to carry on a theological debate without getting mad. It's uplifting. I understand how you can see and believe these things about Christ relating to these scriptures. It does look and seem like that at first glance, but you have to dive deeper. The trinity is a deep, deep mystery that our minds can't fully comprehend. This is where the LDS and Jehova's Witnesses have gone astray. The problem I have and will always have is that you (LDS) and (JW's) believe in more than ONE God. Remember what John 1:1 said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God". Another time Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am". WOW! That is pretty direct. Remember what God told Moses in Exodus 3:14; "God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you". From what is being said here Christ is saying that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob from the OT. Let me say WOW again. Now... here is my thing. If Christ is a lesser god (JW's) or spirit child (LDS) created through celestial sex by God the Father then how can He claim these things? I dont claim to be my dad even though I was born of him. You are robbing Him of His glory my friend. Even though the word "Trinity" is not used in The Bible, the scriptures from the OT and NT point to it. There is ONE God that is made up of three beings. The three beings are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal and co-eternal. John 1:1 points to the first 2 very well. The JW's say that Christ was Michael the Archangel before He came to earth. Even more far out! The LDS and JW's become confused of this terminology that Christ uses and come up with their own doctrine of what they think it means. Jesus Christ was 100% God and 100% Man. This is the "Hypostatic Union". As in Hebrews 1:3, where Jesus is said to be “the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature.” Try arguing that. This is not saying He was born of God's celestial sperm from Mary but that He Is God. Here is an example. I was born of my Mom and Dad through sexual intercourse. I have features of my dad, but I do not have an exact imprint of my dad's nature or of who he is. We are seperate. When Jesus says in Revelation that "He is the Alpha and the Omega". That means He is the beginning and the end. Only God can say that. You take these places in the NT and make these claims, but you are forgetting that Jesus went back and forth speaking from His human side since He was 100% man and speaking from His divine side 100% God. He came as one of us so He could experience our lot in life and be the sacrifice for the sins of mankind. He had to be human and perfect (God) at the same time which was the hypostatic union. Here is the definition of the hypostatic union: the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in one hypostasis or substance which in this case means a being. I hope this makes you think. I will be praying for you. If your going to know Christ you need to know the real and historical one. This is means everything and is very important because if you don't know Him for who He really is then you don't know Him at all. I pray that you seek Him outside of the walls of the LDS organization. May God bless you Doug.

Dylan

Doug Towers said...

Dylan

Trying to put the Jehovah's Witnesses version of Christ with ours just doesn't work, as you are using their doctrines to some degree in relating ours. I'd suggest you just stick to what we believe, which is far different. Because you have done this you haven't understood that we believe that Christ is Jehovah. Your arguments are based on the idea we don't believe that. But we certainly do. Yes, we believe he is the God of the OT. We know he is the great I AM. He stood in the garden with Heavenly Father when the Father declared that the man had become as one of them, to know good from evil.

As to John 1:1 there are many interpretations to this text. Yours is but one. Some interpret that (as the word is singular) that it should be written "a god." Some will then quote Christ and Psalms to suggest that it is an inferior. Some interpret the first 10 verses as belonging together in a Hebrew style of language that shows them to be symbolic. While this comes out as a good explanation, I don't feel right about it somehow inside. I don't particularly hold on to either of these ideas. But then that is my opinion. The text is in far too much question to use authoritively, as you are trying to do.

You have quoted Hebrews 1:3, which states that Jesus reflects the nature of God. Thus proving that he can't be the God who's nature he reflects.

Consider what these 3 next texts are saying _

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ" Galatians 1:3

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him" Ephesians 1:17

There is but ONE God and there is but ONE Lord. It qualifies that the ONE Lord is Jesus Christ. But first it qualifies that the God is the Father, not Jesus Christ. You may find this confusing since I have stated that the Lord Jesus Christ is the God of Israel in the OT. You may ask, is that not 2 Gods?

Doug Towers said...

Dylan

In the OT God gave many laws to Moses. Why were these laws different to what Jesus taught? Because the Israelites were very hard hearted spirits (mostly). Paul said that the gospel was preached to them by Moses but they rejected it due to lack of faith. Even before then there was a lack of faith among them. Jacob's sons were mostly a lost lot. So God had given them to call upon Jehovah from the time of Enos (grandson of Adam). But at the start of the Bible we find the God was Eloheim. But the people couldn't stand the presence of Eloheim. Thus they had to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ as their God. And he certainly wasn't going to confuse them by telling them there were 2.

But by New Testament times he was more open when not speaking to the Jews at first. He made it clear that while he reflected God in the things he taught and did, that he was not God. He even stated that he was a son of God like those quoted in Psalms.

I would ask you if there truly was a trinity, why is it that these verses don't mention the Holy Ghost in the trinity? Christ talked of his father as God and himself as Lord. Paul uses these same terms. Lest you try to tie me in with the Jehovah's Witnesses again let me say that I do believe in the Holy Ghost as a spirit person that testifies of Heavenly Father and of Jesus Christ.

You talk of my beliefs coming from within the walls of the LDS organisation. But you don't know me. My beliefs come directly from those 3 you term a trinity. God's ways don't change. While the church organisation has provided me with information I have sort God for understanding and further instruction.

You have made lots of claims about there being a trinity; but to believe your interpretation of the Scriptures I have to ignore what they are really saying and believe I should read them to mean what they don't say. I always have trouble with that Protestant idea. Its like that we are in the image AND the likeness of God. But not really. We are God's sprit children. But not really. Jesus is the Son of God. But not really.

You see, this stuff just doesn't work for me. I believe what they say IN the Bible.

Anonymous said...

Hi Doug

(You still never answered my question about the Pre-Existence. Where do you get that from The Bible?)

I never meant to confuse you by bringing in JW beliefs. My point was to say that even though both of you guys (LDS church and JW church) have different theologies about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit you have both committed the same sin which is deviating from the God-Breathed and Infallible Holy Scriptures which both of you believe to be incorrect in some ways. This is why you both have your own books written by your founding fathers. Charles Taze Russell changed up and flipped around the Holy Scriptures to fit his vision which is now called the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Joseph Smith took a different approach though. He claimed that the Bible was wrong and that the new testament church had fallen away after the apostles which made his new church the restoration of the old one. He eventually published the Book of Mormon which has been proven to be false by scientists and other early civilization professionals and has been revised several times. He even published The Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine of Covenants. All of this was still done even when Jesus said to Peter; "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it". Hmmmm... Now according to Smith, Christ was wrong because after the apostles all died out the church needed to be restored. It was no longer what Christ had intended it to be. Now, I believe based on scripture that Christ makes no mistakes and knows exactly what He is doing (for He is God). He doesn't set things up and have them fall apart after He departs back to heaven. But as Lorenzo Snow said “As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.”
( The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1984], 1.) This is a teaching of your church and proves the point that if Jesus Christ is who you say He is then there is room for error because He was only human and messed up from time to time. This opens up even bigger questions and problems because now we have a universe filled with gods who were once men. How could He atone for you if there was room for error and sin Doug? I also have a hard time with your reasoning of the scriptures. You flip flop around and grab at straws. I am no theologian or seminary student, but I do not lean on my own understanding and I take in to consideration that words used in the OT and NT have different meanings than what this modern world has to say. You have to go back to the original words and meanings and interpret it that way. You are interpreting based on what the LDS have crammed down your throat over the years. You also read and interpret based upon feelings. You said you do not "feel right" believing in these things. You base your understanding on some feelings because you are going back to LDS teaching and you guys are all about feelings aren't you? Burning in the Bosom and testimonies. I also have a huge problem with this statement as from you "But at the start of the Bible we find the God was Eloheim. But the people couldn't stand the presence of Eloheim.

Anonymous said...

Continuation....
Thus they had to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ as their God. And he certainly wasn't going to confuse them by telling them there were 2". WOW!! Where did you get that from? You are just grabbing right there Doug. You make God out to be this sneaky little liar and afraid of His creation. I find this nowhere in Scripture and you won't ever find it because scripture flows and interacts with each other which makes it infallible. I know I am probably not getting anywhere with you and that's OK because your soul is not in my control. I have done what I needed to do by telling you the truth and no amount of words of scripture from my mouth will make a difference because you sound older and set in your ways. I mean no offense by saying that, but it is true. Only the Holy Spirit can convict you because that is His job. I will leave you with a whole mess of scripture below so you can read for yourself. I challenge you to put the Book of Mormon down and only read The Bible. Go back to the original meanings of the words my friend. You sound very intellegent and I hope and pray you can reason through and come to the truth of who Christ is. Remember; John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am". Also, remember Exodus 3:14; "God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you". "I AM", that is God saying in a nutshell, I AM God who has had no beginning and will have no end. I AM the Alpha and the Omega. Nothing will surpass ME and be greater than ME.

Dylan
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast". Ephesians 2:8-9

Doug Towers said...

Dylan

Your complaint about Russell is unjustified in my opinion. And this is another example of why you should just stick to one religion at a time. There are many versions of the Bible available. The Jehovah's Witnesses aren't committing a sin by publishing another version, as you propose. It would have to be demonstrated that they deliberately set out to deceive people more often than the writers of most of the other versions. Secondly the New World translation wasn't even made until 1961, and Russell died in 1916. So Russell was long dead. If you are going to winge about a religious leader examine the facts first, rather than just listening to your Protestant friends.

Then you say that Joseph Smith also sinned by presenting Scripture that you don't believe in. You tell me that the Book of Mormon has been proven false. You really haven't done any study of the subject, have you? If you take a look in the front of the Book of Mormon you will see the evidence that you have been deceived. It used to have to say that it was "written by Joseph Smith Jnr". But if you take a look now you will see that it states that it was "translated" by him. Why the difference? Because it was taken to court and proven to be an authentic history of the ancient American peoples. The Protestants presented all their "evidence" (that stuff you are referring to) and the church presented the almost endless reams of evidence that prove it. The court found in favor of the church. The Protestants made an appeal and it failed. Perhaps you should educate your Protestant friends about these facts. The reality is that the Book of Mormon has overwhelmingly more evidence than the Bible.

As to Christ's statement to Peter. The statement becomes a bit lost in translation. The name "Peter" means a stone. And Christ was pointing to the similarity of titles in the first part. As Peter was referred to as a stone, so Christ would build his church upon the rock he had just referred to in saying that flesh and blood hadn't delivered Peter's testimony to him, but the Father in Heaven had. We don't dispute that the church (even today) is built upon the rock of revelation between God and man. That has never changed (as Christ stated - nothing can prevail against revelation). But Protestantism tells us this rock was removed when the original apostles died (that there would be no more revelation). We don't dispute that. We argue that God now has people again on the earth that are listening. Yet as to your claim that God doesn't start things that end, I would have to ask you, what of the church God started by Moses? Is it still going somewhere? Because if it is, it is being done in secret.

You have said, "This is a teaching of your church and proves the point that if Jesus Christ is who you say He is then there is room for error because He was only human and messed up from time to time."

You haven't exactly explained that statement, and so I have to guess that you are referring to when he wasn't upon the earth. I have to accept that idea because you then go on to talk as if Gods are unqualified in what they are doing: That they sit around "messing up" things. If you Protestants are going to sit around discussing our beliefs you really need some qualified person to set you straight.

Doug Towers said...

Dylan

One place where I think you are running into trouble is the fact that you see history in a time line, with Jesus Christ being God and then coming to earth and suffering amnesia. In the process he had to grow in grace and in good standing with God (as Luke presents). You can't make any sense of that so you have to believe in some wild idea where he is human but God. The reality is that Jesus came to the earth, became a God by learning all things necessary and submitting his will to the Father and becoming like God. Then he returned to the heavens and reigned throughout the eternity of this earth. The Scriptures tell us that all things past, present and future are before him, and he knows them all. Thus Jesus Christ (as a God) reigned in the heavens. But when he came to earth, from his point of view, he declares that only the Father (and not him) was classified as "good." He was truly "the man Jesus" when upon the earth, but became God in heaven. And he makes NO mistakes nor get things "messed up."

You've said of me, "You base your understanding on some feelings because you are going back to LDS teaching"...

I receive instruction from the Holy Ghost by those feelings you are referring to, among other ways. And it seems only logical that you would challenge the idea and ask how I can know these feelings and instruction to be accurate. The list I could give would be virtually endless, but I will try and keep it to a couple of obvious things.

I once asked to understand politics. The Holy Ghost came and gave me instruction. He showed me things that just popped up on the news and where international politics was involed he would explain to me what these decisions that were being made, meant in terms of the country and its internal problems. I listened to the political commentators opinions and found that they were lucky to get it right even 75% of the time. But the Holy Ghost got it right 100% of the time. He would tell me how it would all unfold. He said that he wasn't prophesying to me, but that he was teaching me of how politics worked. The longest time that it took for something he mentioned to occur was 6 months.

A guy had a problem with his 12-year-old daughter being harassed by the guy next door. He said he knew an elderly couple that he had named his other daughter after, from a past church he used to go to (he is a Protestant). The Holy Ghost strongly advised me that his daughter was not to go with this couple. But he didn't accept me proposing an alternative person to look after his daughter. The people came and his daughter was taken away to a home that locked her up. He didn't see her again until she was 18.

I could go on virtually endlessly with this stuff (as I said). These feelings have been demonstrated by me to be always correct. If you don't wish to believe them then that is your choice. Fire and burning are constantly associated with cleansing by the Holy Ghost and God.

In reply to your question about a pre-existence I can't find this question in your writing to know who's pre-existence you are referring.

In regard your quoted of there being only one Lord, I have already answered who that is - Jesus Christ. And in regard the one God of the New Testament that Christ referred to that is the Father. Which I have also demonstrated. That was a waste of space you writing what I've already written.

Your attempt to answer John 1:1 was how to say nothing. And as you aren't interested in continuing the discussion (you have used my age as excuse - poor since most of my friends are around 20) then there was no need for me to question why all the rest of your comment was about things I believe in as an LDS already.

Anonymous said...

Hi Doug
Read the material I gave you my friend. You are deceived and have been for a long time. Ask the Lord to open your eyes and heart. I am praying for you friend. You lean on the understanding of lds teaching and thus yourself. You are prideful and think that a feeling inside.you is God telling you something. Satan has deceived.you just like he deceived people who followed the Arian teachings way back when. Have a blessed day

dylan

Doug Towers said...

Dylan

In regard Arian, we will never know what he truly taught because we only have the Catholics version of what he was meaning.

The evidence of that problem is demonstrated in that the things you have presented in your comments are almost all what we already believe. Yet you are claiming you need to teach me what I have demonstrated to you in my comments.

In other words you haven't listened any more than the opponents of Arian would have.

You sent me texts demonstrating that Jesus was the Jehovah of the Old Testament. Yet if you read my statement of July 13 you would see that we already know that.

You sent me texts demonstrating that there is a God the Father. Yet I have also told you that in my comments.

You present that there is a Holy Ghost. Yet I also told you that.

Then you present that there is a trinity, but not one Scriptural texts to prove it! All protestant writers admit that there is not ONE text in Scripture stating that there is a trinity.

So out of who's mind did this trinity come? Does it come from God? No. If it had he would have said so IN the Bible.

You say that it is Satan that makes our beliefs, but the Bible says it is God. You are being just as the Jews who accused Jesus of being from Satan, because they didn't like what he said. He could answer them from the Scriptures. And I have answered you. Don't use my age as an excuse to run away from the debate from the Bible or you are running away from the truths of the Bible.

Anonymous said...

I posted a few minutes ago, and I think the post for erased somehow. I have decided to learn more about the Lds church, and in doing so I have felt a change in my mind but mostly my heart. I have a baptism day set for September 30th I thought you would want to know this. My family and former congregation members are most very upset over this, but Crazy as this sounds well it feels right.
Thank you!

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

I hope all goes well for you. Family and friends can be a strong opposition to acceptance of the truth. Keep up the good work and prayer for your friends and family.

Anonymous said...

I'm being baptized next Saturday! I have never been very religious because I grew up southern Baptist and afraid of the gospel. I met with the missionaries about 3 weeks ago and have had 2-3 "lessons" a week. our lessons started delving much much deeper from day 2 in my question of God having a teacher because I can't imagine a being who just is. long story short, my eyes are now wide open and my life has purpose. I know these things are true and I'm so excited to learn more! please feel free to email me. kb104607@gmail.com

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

Great to hear of your coming baptism and enthusiasm. As a convert from Protestantism myself I know what it is to suddenly have a meaning for existence.

Thanks for your email address. I'll keep in touch to see how you're going.

Thanks for the input.

Will Nasio said...

Doug.

Loved the article. What you have shared is things I already believe. Look forward to you unleashing some deeper thoughts on the per existence.

Will

Doug Towers said...

Will

Thanks for the support. I think the level I went to was taking it about as far as I would online. I have nonmembers and new members coming to the site as well.

Additionally to that I have members who are having trouble getting past gospel doctrine class thinking.

If you have something you wish to discuss beyond that, then you can go to my "Doctrinal Questions Answered" site and put your email address and name in the comment section. It won't be published but I will get it and reply by email.

Anonymous said...

Doug
Thanks a lot for these great insights. I now in part understand what Joseph Smith meant when he said he could taste the principles of eternal life. True principles do not need much consideration but sink right through the soul by the Holy Ghost.
Im LDS and request for more on the preexistence and other interesting subjects- email add.-

Thanks again!

Anonymous said...

Hello,

Thank you for the article. It fits in very well with some of the concepts I read in a book called "Life Everlasting." I love learning more about who I truly am and where I come from. I am LDS and would love to hear more of your thoughts on the subject.

Please e-mail me at cchristensen14@hotmail.com with your non-published thoughts when you get the chance.

Thank you!

Anonymous said...

Loved the article, some great insight, I'd love to read some more of your material concerning pre mortal existence my email is jake.jensen@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

Hello. I really liked this article. I really would like to know more of gender roles... for example why there exists homosexuals...

Anonymous said...

Your construct of pre existence saddens me for you and your desciples. So many misused scriptures. You and the JW, s et al. sqweeze scripture into contortions to fit your manmade models and sadly call it Holy Spirit inspired. What awsome self pride. Verse pulling is the hallmark of denominational constructs always has been , you are one of a long list of many. Manufacturing "truth". Jesus is God. Read it in context. It is irrefutable. You have delved so deep into your own construct there is no way out, pride won't alow it. In the last days , people so willing to beleive a lie. And by the way as God's habit of renaming is so important there is no Lucifur he gave that right up. He is now satan the devil that old dragon.the on you elevate. And Jesus the one you demote.this of course is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Good luck with that.

Anonymous said...

Again not computer savvy anonimous is Stephen May

Berit Davidson said...

Gradual in the spirit world!

Berit Davidson said...

Please forward likewise to beritdavidson@gmail.com
Thanks!!!

Anonymous said...

Hello Doug,
And so we arrive in 2015. But I also would like to receive more information from you.
Could you send it to anishaera@gmail.com

it is much appreciated.