Friday, December 31, 2010

Endless Celestial Sex? What are we Told in Regard This?

Question has arisen in regard the idea of Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mothers needing to have "endless celestial sex" in order to produce the billions of spirit bodies required for our intelligences. After all there are billions of people on this planet alone. Therefore one could conclude that Heavenly Father needed to have sex billions of times. Yet is this the fact?

In addition to this question some aren't sure whether Gods engage in sex at all. Is God really our Heavenly Father or just our Heavenly Inventor? some pose. Is Heavenly Mother just really a Heavenly Nanny, that raised, but did not bear us?

Brigham Young stated _
"[God] created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:122

So Brigham is declaring that the act of sex, conception, pregnancy and delivery is the only method by which any creation of any living entity takes place. Of course some animals and insects lay eggs etc. Yet parenthood is required. Families are truly eternal.

Joseph Smith confirms this _
"Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor?" Teachings of the Prophet JS Section 6 1843-1844:373:1

Therefore all bodies have to be created by parental processes according to both Brigham and Joseph.

Paul confirms this further by presenting the relationship of Heavenly Father as a father relating to the way our fleshly fathers are fathers _
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?" Hebrews 12:9

Jesus Christ also mentions this concept _
"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matthew 7:9-11

If they meant something different than a father in the real sense then these texts would lose context, for how can you relate cheese to chalk?

D&C 77:2 informs us that _
"...the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created."

So the spirit bodies of all living creatures are in the likeness of their physical bodies. This means that all creatures had eternal parents that look the same as them. All those parents had them as spirit children in the pre-existence.

That there was a birth process rather than our spirit bodies being invented is additionally evidenced by the fact that Jesus Christ was the first born spirit.

In regard Christ Paul writes _
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Col 1:15

Then there is the fact that some are considered to have been brought forth in the morning of this process. Even Lucifer is one of those sons of the morning (D&C 76:26).

So if God just invented our spirit bodies, he surely could have just done a bulk lot and done us all together.

Bruce R. McConkie _"Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father. Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities." Mormon Doctrine, p. 750

We know from the D&C that our intelligences were eternal, and therefore existed before we were born to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother as spirit children.

"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." D&C 93:29

Naturally when it uses the term "man" it is referring to those who eventually become mankind. Man was not actually made as man until the creation of Adam and Eve. Yet our intelligences are eternal and we made the decision to go along with Heavenly Father's idea to become part of his family and receive spirit bodies. We grew and made decisions. But when it came to getting a physical body one third decided to go no further with our Heavenly Parents plan. They followed Satan and refused to get physical bodies.

Question is presented of how parents with physical bodies can produce spirit bodies? After all don't physical parents produce physical bodied children here on earth? Note the following from Brigham Young.

"the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth." Journal of Discourses : 4 : Brigham Young 1857/02/08 :215

So when our Heavenly Parents had Adam and Eve all that was necessary for them to produce children made from the dust of this earth was for them to partake of the dust of this earth until they had sufficient to produce the 2 children. Thus the babies that God and Goddesses produce are made of the substances that they eat. To produce physical bodies they eat physical matter and to produce spirit bodies they just eat spirit matter.

Note also that he is stating that the matter had to be inside Heavenly Father for the beings to be created. This also supports the idea of a birth rather than a popped up creation.

One would question why we need parents? The answer is that when our spirit is placed in our physical body it has no idea how to get a body to function. The time in the womb is a time when our spirit learns this skill. When we come out we have to additionally learn to move our bodies and speak. All this also takes time. How can you possibly take a spirit and just place it in a body and have the person live? It can't be done. Also our spirit bodies required similar adjustment to. We need parents.

Yet amidst all this the idea has been presented that our Heavenly Parents would need to be in a constant state of having sex to produce all these offspring. This is false.

When the average healthy male has sex with a woman he will place in her between 40 million and 1.2 billion sperm in ejaculation. Unfortunately, us being fallen beings, there is a good chance that absolutely none of the sperm will obtain the objective. All those sperm will have died in vain.

Yet what if the producer of those sperm is a glorified immortal being? Will the multitude of sperm die? Of course not! They will live on and the mother can store them until required. (Sorry to those who may wish otherwise, but no endless celestial sex).

Additionally God's ability to produce the numbers required would obviously be far superior to the average healthy fallen male. Thus it may only be required for him to do so once with each wife to produce untold billions.

I must add to this that Godlike sex is absolutely nothing like what is commonly practiced among mankind. It is a spiritual activity that doesn't register physical responses (ie no lust). It works on a spirit to spirit love basis. Physical bodies are required, but no physical focus is done.

32 comments:

kh said...

Hey Doug,

I would have responded earlier but busy moving to a new location. Very interesting post.

Doug Towers said...

kh

Shifting. A moving experience. A play on words there. I couldn't resist that one.

Glad the post was informative.

kh said...

Of course, Doug I admit that by me stating "busy moving to a new location." is rather redundant since moving to the same location would not be moving at all, would it? Moving on ...... I am curious about something. My understanding of our pre-mortal existence is that when we grew from spirit newborn infant to full grown stature we appeared to look to be in our late twenties (26-28) years old and that our spirit of course does not age so that all who pass on at death resume their same appearance as they were before they came to earth. Any thoughts?

Doug Towers said...

kh

I have read from several books where people discuss their experiences with the dead. I was somewhat surprised at first by the number of inconsistencies in regard this matter. However several experiences have helped in this regard.

On one occassion while I was a nightpatrolman I went into a place that was known to be haunted. The place had been there for well over a hundred years, with many workers.

I suddenly saw all the spirits in this room which was gigantic. They were all over in the one corner. They were dressed in attire of various times over the period of the existence of the building.

Their ages varied, though there was a strong tendency toward about the ages you mention. The oldest appeared to be around 45-50.

Other experiences I've had have shown that we have great control over spirit matter. Thus we really can appear as we choose.

yeti said...

you mentioned the consumtion of spirit matter. do you thin that in this need for consumption the the gods are not self sufficient?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

No. Heavenly Father only partakes of the matter necessary for him to produce the sperm required.

While Heavenly Mothers partake of it for the purpose of producing the egg and then the formation of the body in the womb.

yeti said...

Does the matter which Heavenly Father consume the same matter which the becomes the Spirit Child?
Unless the woman is producing more than one egg multipul sperm will really do no good inside of a woman. One Sperm per egg is how it generally works, and from that there will be a baby. the other sperm, if it were to stay around would not do any good and would be bound to come out of the woman at birth.

Do you believe that our Heavenly Parents continue to birth Spirit Children?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

Yes, if Heavenly Father wants to provide a physical body he eats physical matter. If he wants to produce a spirit body he eats spirit matter.

Our Heavenly Mothers store the unused sperm until the next egg is produced. Then they take one of those sperm, still within them, and fertalize the egg. Thus from one act of sex can come at least millions of children. Of course, in reality, it would be more likely to be in excess of billions.

IN regard to continuing to give birth to spirit children. As God said, it is his work and his glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). God's work never ceases.

It is strange that a lot of people accuse us of blasphemy in considering that we can become as God. But if they understood God they may not be so keen to condemn those who seek to spend eternity in the service of others. Christ stated, "I came not to be served, but to serve." There are no harder workers in the universe than Gods and Godesses. Their entire existence is dedicated to service. No long service leave. No sick days off. Not even any annual leave. Not a 9 to 5. Its a 24/7. And you have to put up with some extremely rebellious and hard nosed children.

As Christ said it is those who lose their lives that find it.

There is no one that has more peace, love and happiness in him than does Heavenly Father. And Jesus Christ comes not far behind.

yeti said...

The human female would have not place to store the extra sperm. I guess this could be different with a heavenly being?

yeti said...

And... does Heavenly Father have other planets for his other spirit children?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

Heavenly beings bodies are the same as ours except that they are glorified and resurrected. Anatomically the bits are in the same places and all present.

I would think that the ovaries would be an appropriate place for such storage. It must be remembered that Gods and Godesses have absolute control over matter. Thus while remaining anatomically the same they have some flexability in usage.

As to where other spirits go. Space goes on forever. There is no end of space. If someone were to believe in a start and end to space I would have to ask them, what is on the other side of it?

In that space there are endless intelligences. These intelligences can't progress beyond a certain point very well. So they need our help.

Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mothers came along and found us intelligences struggling to improve ourselves (in some cases). He put before all intelligences their plan of improving our existence. Most of these intelligences aren't capable of being human in that their progression as intelligences hadn't taken them that far and they weren't going to: They had set their course.

To those of us who chose to become spirit sons and daughters of Heavenly Father and Mothers, we then were given the opportunity to come here and make further progress. Those who were eager and capable began the creation process, with the first born son (Jesus Christ) in charge. We learnt to use the powers within us through faith and love that Heavenly Father and our Mothers had taught us.

When we are finished here we go on to do the same, by helping intelligences like ourselves to gain greater happiness and fulfilment. This we obtain in the service of others. As Heavenly Father and Mothers serve us they grow in love and happiness, just as their Heavenly parents before them continue to do.

This is an eternal work. As space and intelligences continue on and on, so does the work before us.

So to answer your question simply, yes, endless other planets will be made.

yeti said...

do you think that some intelligence which does not come to this earth as a person, would come as a plant? then what? after that intelligence dies, after this world is done away with (do you think that eventually happens?), do you think that intellegence could progress so that on another world it becomes a human?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

Much and all as I have looked at that idea logically, I have never felt any spiritual confirmation of that idea. In fact I would be more inclined to say that I have felt that we set our course and don't deviate.

This I have definitely felt, from the Holy Ghost, in regard people: That they won't progress afterward from kingdom to kingdom.

So with my present knowledge I can only go on that idea - no change afterward for any living thing.

yeti said...

Thanks Doug for sharing your thoughts on this.

Patricia

Martain said...

Even before having read your post, I'd asked myself the same questions and considered the answers you put forth as well and in the end determined that the answers are some of the mysteries of God, that the answers had not yet been revealed and that I must appeal to him in order to know the answers.

D&C 12:9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

Either these doctrines are true or they are false.

If true, are they among the portion of his word which he grants unto the children of men? If they are, wouldn't it be the Leaders of the Church who bring it forward?

If these mysteries do fall under the category of those words not given unto the children of man and God has seen fit to expound them unto you, would you not have also received the strict injunction not to impart? A command which you would have broken by giving it to one and all?

Are you a prophet to whom God has revealed hidden things who is trifling with sacred things by imparting mysteries contrary to his command?

Are you one who has been decieved by the adversary and is receiving false revelation?

In the end, is it not true that these doctrines you propose have [i]not[/i] been revealed to the church as official doctrine by those having authority to do so?

If so why do you teach them? By doing so are you not putting yourself as a light to the world? Would others be wrong in considering this a form of priestcraft? Is this something you want others to think even if in error?

2 Nephi 26:29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

Do I really think you're teaching these things for the gain and praise of the world? No.
Do I agree with that which you have taught here? No.
Does that mean that it still isn't true? No.
Does that mean that I don't hope certain parts of it are true? No.

I came here from LDS.NET forums because someone there was asking whether or not you were actually a prophet and I determined to find out which I couldn't do unless I read your words for myself.

Although I've started from current and I'm working my way back, I've not yet concluded one way or the other.

Either way, if you [b][i]are[/i][/b] a prophet...

D&C 6:10-12

10 Behold thou hast a gift, and blessed art thou because of thy gift. Remember it is sacred and cometh from above—
11 And if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways.
12 Make not thy gift known unto any save it be those who are of thy faith. [i]Trifle not with asacred things[/i].

Martain said...

Bruce R. McConkie _"Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father. Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities." Mormon Doctrine, p. 750

Of the book used in the reference here, the following has been stated:

"We [the First Presidency of the Church] decided that Bruce R. McConkie’s book, ‘Mormon Doctrine’ recently published by Bookcraft Company, must not be re-published, as it is full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has received such wide circulation. It is reported to us that Brother McConkie has made corrections to his book, and is now preparing another edition. We decided this morning that we do not want him to publish another edition." (Reference can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Doctrine_(book) )

Furthermore the quote you use seems to directly contradict other quotes, these from the Prophet Joseph Smith.

"The Spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity."
(The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p 158)

"... the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. ... All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself."
(The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p 351)

Martain said...

Even before having read your post, I'd asked myself the same questions and considered the answers you put forth as well and in the end determined that the answers are some of the mysteries of God, that the answers had not yet been revealed and that I must appeal to him in order to know the answers.

D&C 12:9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

Either these doctrines are true or they are false.

If true, are they among the portion of his word which he grants unto the children of men? If they are, wouldn't it be the Leaders of the Church who bring it forward?

If these mysteries do fall under the category of those words not given unto the children of man and God has seen fit to expound them unto you, would you not have also received the strict injunction not to impart? A command which you would have broken by giving it to one and all?

Are you a prophet to whom God has revealed hidden things who is trifling with sacred things by imparting mysteries contrary to his command?

Are you one who has been decieved by the adversary and is receiving false revelation?

In the end, is it not true that these doctrines you propose have [i]not[/i] been revealed to the church as official doctrine by those having authority to do so?

If so why do you teach them? By doing so are you not putting yourself as a light to the world? Would others be wrong in considering this a form of priestcraft? Is this something you want others to think even if in error?

2 Nephi 26:29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

Do I really think you're teaching these things for the gain and praise of the world? No.
Do I agree with that which you have taught here? No.
Does that mean that it still isn't true? No.
Does that mean that I don't hope certain parts of it are true? No.

I came here from LDS.NET forums because someone there was asking whether or not you were actually a prophet and I determined to find out which I couldn't do unless I read your words for myself.

Although I've started from current and I'm working my way back, I've not yet concluded one way or the other.

Either way, if you [b][i]are[/i][/b] a prophet...

D&C 6:10-12

10 Behold thou hast a gift, and blessed art thou because of thy gift. Remember it is sacred and cometh from above—
11 And if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways.
12 Make not thy gift known unto any save it be those who are of thy faith. [i]Trifle not with asacred things[/i].

Doug Towers said...

Martain

So far I've had to copy your comments and paste them. So there is something wrong with how you are doing it. If your comment doesn't appear after you have posted it then you have made some error.

Good thoughts.

The apostle Paul suffered from a problem in that he was one of the first to write letters to the members of the church. He speaks boldly but unclearly. He says things which could be pulled to pieces with analysis.

Brigham Young and Joseph Smith both suffered with this same problem. They spoke without considering the many ways their statement could be taken out of context. Church administrators today are extremely cautious of their words.

You quote Joseph Smith declaring that spirits aren't created or made. Yet what he really meant was that intelligences weren't created or made (D&C 93:29).

I had thought about the planets and considered just how far do we go in that regard. I had also realised that snakes etc didn't breed in the way being said. But I put the latter (at least) down to that early teachers not having woken up to be more careful of their words problem. Snakes etc still come from parents. So I have taken their statements with that consideration.

I have no problem with D&C 77:2. Nor do I see any conflict with it and the rest of the Scriptures.

I wasn't exactly quoting Bruce as an absolute, but an opinion expressed in a book that many uphold as some kind of Scripture. If I have to suffer his alternate opinions I should at least be able to rejoice in his times of agreement.

You've stated _

"If true, are they among the portion of his word which he grants unto the children of men? If they are, wouldn't it be the Leaders of the Church who bring it forward?

If these mysteries do fall under the category of those words not given unto the children of man and God has seen fit to expound them unto you, would you not have also received the strict injunction not to impart? A command which you would have broken by giving it to one and all?"


The church administrators would be the last to bring them forth for the reasons you quote. If they say them then everyone has to accept what they may not accept. If I state them then people can just say, "who is he that we should accept what he says?" So members can ponder upon them and leave it to the Spirit to guide as they are listening.

As you have said, practising priestcrafts requires me to be making money out of it. My site is very popular and yet you will note I have no advertising. It would also require me to be saying who exactly I am so that I may gain the adoration of the world. Almost no one even knows what country I come from. Let alone state, stake and ward. All I'm asking is that people consider upon the things I am saying if they feel ready for it. I encourage people to seek a personal relationship with Heavenly Father through direct communication with him through Jesus Christ. I encourage the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

D&C 6 is wise advice, but not always applied in real life. Prophets and apostles throughout time have been advised to do the opposite (Moses before Pharoah for example).

Anonymous said...

It is a falsehood to say that Heavenly Father has more than one wife.

Heavenly Father only has one wife. Just as all exalted men will only have one wife.

There is no such thing as righteous plural marriage or polygamy, never has been & never will be.

Joseph Smith, Christ & many other prophets taught that polygamy, or anything like unto it, is adultery, & is extremely abusive to women & children & an abomination of the most vile kind.

No righteous man in this world or the next, would or will ever live polygamy.

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

Have you thought about the maths in what you are proposing? The Scriptures inform us that there has to be at least 144,000 males who will get eternal life.

Lets suppose for the moment that that is the total number. Have you considered what you are suggesting? You are saying that there will be EXACTLY the same amount of women as men that gain eternal life. Are you sure that you've thought it through? What are the odds that you are wrong?

Here we have female intelligences that think differently than men. He can't just take intelligences and say, I'll make half of them women and half of them men. They already have certain dispositions. Yet God found exactly an equal amount that would obtain eternal life of each gender.

I don't think you have thought it through too much at all.

What is more is that even if we are to propose that he kept the surplus of one gender to put down and equal out the next planet, what if the next planet and so on doesn't come out equal either, with a surplus of the same gender?

I've tossed up a coin five times and had it land on the same side every time. Your plan fails for the same reason that gambling systems fail.

God would sooner or later end up with vast numbers unable to be placed on planets because of the luck (or lack of luck) of the draw.

You have said _

"No righteous man in this world or the next, would or will ever live polygamy."

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." Genesis 25:1

"But to the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts..." Genesis 25:6

Abraham had a wife and concubines even after Sarah's death. What is more is that according to what you have previously said, this additional marriage was adultery because he already had an eternal marriage to Sarah.

So Abraham wasn't a righteous man???? Christ referred to the righteous resting in the bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:23).

But I know, your going to tell me that you know that really God was displeased with Abraham but he just wouldn't let on that he felt that way.

Which God actually gave you this instruction? It isn't in the Bible, the Book of Mormon or any other text of the Standard Works, stating that the act of plural marriage itself is an evil institution. You are reading things in that just aren't there.

Anonymous said...

Doug,

Abraham only lived polygamy because he & Sarah did not have enough faith in God's promise they would have their own child. They had to learn by sad experience that it was not right & did not produce a happy situation. God told Abraham to send Hagar away, basically telling him to repent of polygamy.

If Abraham would have really believed in polygamy as a righteous or necessary principle, he would have lived it alot earlier, seeing how concerned he was to have a son. But he didn't, he waited almost 100 years & then only lived polygamy at the insistance of his wife.

Jacob also only lived it because of weakness. Neither of those men were commanded to live it. They both learned the negative consequences from living it.

Abraham was not a perfect man, he made mistakes & apparently repented of them. Plus, we have to take the Bible with a huge grain of sand, for what we read is probably not translated correctly or giving the whole or real story as it really was.

The Book of Mormon trumps the Bible, if there is ever any question about a principle of doctrine. The BoM teaches how vile & abusive polygamy is & never condones it in any instance.

As far as the number of men & women in the Cel. Kingdom, there will be the exact same number. For the requirement for Exaltation is true unconditional love for your spouse, no matter what they do or are like on earth. For the greatest purpose of marriage is to save your spouse, if they become unrighteous & need saving.

Thus, every righteous wife in the Cel. K. will have her own husband she had on earth, or one she met in the Millennium, for even if he was wicked, she would have saved him & enabled him to come to the CK with her. Same with all righteous men, who saved their wife if she needed saving.

In other words, we will go 2 by 2 to the Cel. Kingdom, or not at all.
For if a spouse did not have unconditional true love for their 1st spouse, they can't merit Exaltation anyway, & thus they will be single for all eternity, unless their spouse happens to save them & takes them to the CK.

But most spouses are not willing to save their spouse, they just divorce them or both live unworthy of the Cel. K.

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

I said nothing about Abraham living polygamy in regard producing a child with Hagar. And this was not polygamy. Concubines are surrogate mothers. Not wives. The only thing you could accuse him of relative to Hagar was fornication. And then you would have to prove that surrogate mothers weren't acceptable to God.

I talked of Keturah, who came long after Hagar. You claim that Abraham learned not to have more than one female by his experience with Hagar. You have also claimed that righteous men don't marry another woman after their first wife has died. Yet Abraham married Keturah and took on concubines up until his death.

Read it before you start blasting that trumpet again.

Jacob didn't love Leah and had been forced into it. Don't you read these stories you quote? You, yourself, talked of forced marriages not being binding, and then complain because Jacob married the girl he truly loved. The fault here wasn't polygamy. It was the deception of his father-in-law binding him to a marriage he didn't want.

You have claimed that Abraham wasn't a perfect man. We all know that all have sinned sometime in their lives. But we all know that repentance brings forgiveness and that from there we become scripturally perfect, as Christ declared. So show me where GOD (not you) has declared that Abraham sinned. Now don't dodge the question. Show scripture and verse, with GOD SAYING that Abraham committed a sin in ANY act he is recorded as having done.

Because you claiming he has sinned in any of these things is just hypathetical speculation.

Now because the Bible doesn't teach what you are declaring boldly you blame the Bible in all the flaws it demonstrates in what you are saying. And yet when you started out you claimed boldly that the Scriptures supported you and that they declared that polygamy was a vile act demonstrated as vile on every occassion.

You then go on to say _

"The Book of Mormon trumps the Bible, if there is ever any question about a principle of doctrine. The BoM teaches how vile & abusive."

WHERE - book, chapter and verse please! Show me where the Book of Mormon refers to polygamy ITSELF as being either vile or abusive? Note that I'm not interested in verses that show that people can do vile or abusive things in the process of practising the principle. I want you to show me where the book states that polygamy of itself is vile and/or abusive. There is no such verse.

When I asked you to explain to me the maths I wasn't asking for you to repeat what you had already claimed. I was asking how you come to the totally irrational conclusion that there just happens to be an equal amount of intelligences of both genders conveniently awaiting coming to this earth? The question still stands.

You pretend to speak with authority. Yet continually you have no Scriptural backing. I feel confident that you have probably not even seen Christ, let alone Heavenly Father, that you pretend to speak on their behalf in spiritual matters.

When I come in guns blazing I make sure I have a tank behind me. You come in guns blazing and walking on thin air. Go back to your Scriptures and learn. And stop listenning to all the femanist clap-trap that you must have got from poor Emma.

yeti said...

Doug, I do not know if you are right or not, but you are not very kind.

Doug Towers said...

Yeti

Have you read his comments in the post "Divorce Figures are Misleading?" Here he boldly teaches a doctrine in which women can just leave their husbands with God's blessing. In fact his comment supports the idea. He says that the woman is supposed to check out her husband in the 9 months following the sacred sex that he has had with her, to decide if he is worthy to be the father.

If she decides he isn't then she should just dump the guy who she has made a marriage vow to and had sex with.

This is the abominable doctrine which he has come to inform us of.

Apparently the man has no understanding of what fatherless children feel like.

I have informed him that if he doesn't stop preaching this feminist nonsense I will remove any comments he makes that aren't supported by him in Scripture.

He has done nothing but make wild claims with NO scriptural support.

You are right that I don't feel very kind toward his philosophies. And I know they are abominable to God.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
yeti said...

Well Doug, you do not need to like his ideas. But you should love him, right?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

My anger is directed at the abominable doctrine he is teaching. It is not personal. He has slandered such great people as Abraham (whom I love and respect dearly).

He has made silly claims. And has no backing for any of them. I had asked him over and over to back up what he was saying. And he can't.

What is more is that I gave him many scriptures demonstrating he was wrong and he ignored them as he couldn't answer them.

His perspective of the divine marriage is perverted and he is making unsubstantiated claims in that regard also.

I'll discuss anything with anyone who is willing to demonstrate why he or she believes the thing. But to ridicule others with no backing I don't accept.

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

As I declared if your comment had no Scriptural backing I would remove it. You are just making claims that Moses, Abraham and many great prophets were abominable people. And you have made wild claims that aren't supported even by what few attempts you have made. You have put in ideas that just aren't even mentioned in what few Scriptures you have quoted.

Anonymous said...

You Mormons have got to be the most easily swindled people on the face of the earth, or some of them. Please, before you believe such an abominable vile demonic doctrine that the God of Israel has a wife or wives and that the Holy One begot children by having "celestial sex", why don't you read the Jewish bible,the Tanakh, which is the only true source of information regarding Him that we have. In that book, the Hebrew bible, there is NOTHING about such a thing that you deceived people believe.
Our bible says that YHWH is One Person on One throne and He is not married, nor has He begotten children, nor does He need to. He created everything out of nothing and He made man in His image, the scripture says out of the dust of the earth, not by some heavenly procreation. The "New Testament" is very tainted by non-Jewish eye witnesses of the man Jesus of Nazareth, the moshiach ben David, the king to come, but Jesus is not God, nor the son of God, nor the spirit brother of Lucifer (which is a name for the king of Tyre found in the KJV). Your doctrines are vile in the eyes of the God of Israel, and you believe in "prophets" that would never be considered real prophets by anyone who can read the Hebrew bible. Why would I say this? A REAL prophet of YHWH is proven by his obedience to the eternal Law of Moses (over 600 commandments) which he teaches to all people, and a real prophet must be tested according to the laws of Deuteronomy 13 and 18 and he must not fail in the stipulations there. If he fails, then he is no prophet of YHWH, but a false speaker. Your "prophets" didn't teach the Torah and are not holy and were misled lost souls, and they fail to teach people to walk in the ways of YHWH. All real prophets do not contradict the writings of the other prophets of YHWH, but, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both contradicted the real prophets of Israel. Smith and Young did not keep the commandments and neither does your vile demonic church. Repent and turn from your demonic theologies and doctrines and lack of Torah observance, all which goes against the teachings of the true prophets of Israel in the Tanakh, your sins are against YHWH Himself. Destroy all your demonic mormon doctrines and books and start reading the Tanakh and learn from it and actually obey the bible, not just read your own vile false books written by false misled prophets who were deceived by satan. Stop and think about what I am saying, your teachings are abominable according to the Law of YHWH, and if you do not repent, He will surely judge you for your sins.

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

First let me inform those reading who are unfamiliar with the terms that the Tanakh means the Old Testament writings. And the Torah refers to the first 5 books of the Old Testament. The latter are upheld particularly for containing God's laws to Israel as delivered by Moses. YHWH is usually translated as Jehovah or Lord.

I'm sorry that you feel offended that I have suggested that the God of Heaven should regard those sacred things he has taught us to do in the Tanakh as sacred himself. Our God loves us and would only ask us to do that which is right.

Before Adam and Eve fell they were commanded to have sex for the purpose of procreation. This was GOD commanding this. Not a man. Not Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young. It was the God of Heaven. And it is recorded in the Torah.

You have mentioned that the Torah says we are in God's image. You forgot to mention that it goes on to say we are ALSO in his likeness. One refers to us looking like him in a mirror image (that which you can see) and the other refers to us being exactly like him in the things you can't see (his spirit). This is repeated again in regard Seth relative to Adam his father.

So we have the God of Heaven creating us exactly like him and commanding his children to procreate in order that we may also create children in our own likeness and image.

You have mentioned that it talks of Adam and Eve being made of the dust of the earth, as if to suggest that procreation definitely wasn't involved. Yet the Tanakh also tells us that we are of the dust of the earth. And we also had parents who are in God's image and likeness.

Where did you get the idea that God made everything out of nothing? I don't recall reading that in the Tanakh. The Hebrew word used to describe creation is "baurau." How do you come to the conclusion that the word "create" means to make something out of absolutely nothing? If I say I created a painting or a house would you conclude that I had made them out of nothing? Even an idea comes from our mind. No mind, no idea.

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

You tell me that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young contradict the prophets of Israel. Yet not one verse is quoted to support this claim. If you make the claim again without Scriptural support I will delete that part of your comment. I'm tired of people making baseless accusations about prophets. So include text with claim.

You say that the prophets in these days don't teach the Torah. Yet I have heard it preached many times by these same prophets you feel aren't doing so. I think you need to read some of their talks again. Let me add to that the point that all members of the church of Christ should be receiving prophesy. And I read the Torah and believe it to be of God. I don't practice blood atonements as given in the Torah, but then you don't either. I have a reason why I don't need to (because of my acceptance of the atonement of Christ). Why don't you practice them?

Next I come to the idea that the Tanakh says that God is one person. What it is actually saying is that YHWH is one, and the only God of Israel. Yet if you read in the beginning of the Tanakh you will find that YHWH isn't there at all. Only Eloheim is. And Eloheim says to an unnamed person that they will make man in their image and likeness. Who was this unnamed person whom God produced a child with? You say that God doesn't produce children the way that we do. You are saying that God doesn't need a wife. So who is this and why has he told us to procreate that way if it is an evil thing (as you are feeling it is)?

Then a chapter later we find mention of two Gods - Jehovah has arrived in the script. It says that both Jehovah and Eloheim were involved after that. It also tells us that BOTH Eloheim AND Jehovah carried on a conversation together and agreed that the man had become as one of "us" to know good from evil (Gen 3:22). Note that it wasn't until the time of Enos that man stopped calling upon God the Father (Eloheim) and began to call upon the name of Jehovah only (Gen 4:26). This is why Israel only had one God.

Sex is a wonderful and loving thing for procreation, when practiced in real love. And the evidence of that is that the higher the law for good the greater the evil that can take place with it. Thus the opposite of procreation (the first commandment given to man) is murder - taking life. And the opposite of loving sex within procreation is lust - leading to adultery and fornication. So since these are such high principles we can know they are practiced by a righteous God.

You tell me you believe that Jesus is not the Son of God. Yet you don't appear to understand the Tanakh you are quoting. Nor have you given me one Scriptural reference to prove it.

Berit Davidson said...

Outstanding, I love you giving voice to truths I is hold sacred so cohesively!