Monday, March 15, 2010

Homosexuality and Lesbianism - Genetic?

Sexual attraction is very individual. Some are attracted to fat people and others to thin. Some are attracted to tanned people and others to milky white. Some go for blondes and others redheads etc. Long hair or short? If kept in sensible proportion these things are basically harmless. And no one cares about which you choose. Yet homosexuality and lesbianism are a different matter, as they oppose the purpose of marriage.

There are claims of people being born that way, and all sorts of things. There’s talk of it being in the genes _ that a person is genetically that way inclined. Scientific studies have been conducted by groups for and against, and it has been scientifically proven and scientifically disproved. It depends on who paid for the "evidence" as to what the "evidence" is. This leaves us with no certainty from a scientific viewpoint.

In the 1950's guys went for girls that had arms slightly wider than the current trend. The Chinese went for fat women because they were rare: It demonstrated wealth. So why do we now go for thin women? How could this be genetic? We would have to have the majority of males with this sudden change in genes.

Women in the 1970's went for men with hairy chests. Now the look is hairless that attracts females. So have the females changed genes too?

Obviously not! Our thoughts and perceptions aren't brought about by genes. Our sexual desire for thin women or women's desire for hairless men is no more genetic than choosing to like males or females is. We form opinions and then either reject them or entrench them.

Once entrenched, however, they can be difficult to shift. And doing so will take some time.

There is much confusion due to all the hype and deception that is placed around. And some question whether it is alright to live homosexual or lesbian lifestyles. To get to the truth we need to approach the subject with fresh thinking, unencumbered by the propaganda.

Is there Evidence that Homosexuality and Lesbianism are Unnatural?
A look at animals gives us the answer. Observing them doesn’t reveal homosexual / lesbian relationships as a standard way of living. I was brought up in an area where I got to see many dogs wandering the streets. While I have seen dogs try to relieve their frustration, even on lampposts, whenever a male dog attempts anal penetration with another male the one underneath immediately throws the other off. If such were a natural thing then why didn’t I see homosexual and lesbian relationships with these dogs? Nor have I seen such with the many stray cats we had.

Some will quote claims of homosexual activity occurring with some animal in some distant land. I haven't seen any filmed evidence of this being true. Nor in regard lesbian activity. Yet even if rare cases exist, surely animals should have an equal ratio of lesbians and homosexuals as humans have, if it is natural. Why would it be limited to humans only or humans and some rare cases in the animal kingdom?

So we see that homosexuality and lesbianism are concepts produced by the human mind, not nature.

Now We've Established that it isn't Natural; Is it Alright Anyway?
God gives us commandments and instructions because he knows it best for US to follow the concepts: That WE will benefit from following it. From a Scriptural point of view it is clearly opposed by God. For example, under the Law of Moses the penalty was death (Leviticus 20:13).

Paul also presented that women and men were to refrain from such practices _

"For this reason God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use to that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was due." (Romans 1:26-27).

So God has a reason for considering them extremely negative to the development of a person.

Further Thoughts
My son informed me that, in his class, one third of the females ventured into lesbian relationships at some point. He observed that one particular female's arrival propted this. Yet the majority of the girls eventually returned to heterosexual relationships. This demonstrates that lesbian behavior had been performed by choice, and ended by choice. This was clearly a mental, not biological decision.

I have done quite a lot of counselling of sex-offenders in jails. Of those dealing with children under the age of 8, almost all were either practicing homosexual or bi-sexual lifestyles. Of those strictly dealing with children over that age, that were habitual offenders (ie had been imprisoned at least twice for the same crime), almost all were practicing homosexual lifesyles; and the remaining few were practicing bi-sexual lifestyles. I would assume that somewhere there would be exceptions to that. I just haven't had the experience of working with any, in the many I've dealt with.

I'm not suggesting that all those practicing homosexuality are sex-offenders waiting to happen. I raise this point to present that sexaul distortion is definately associated with acts outside of that which God has stated to be the natural lifestyle. And those with one distortion are more likely to expand to another, regardless of what distortion we are discussing. So it is no good putting your head in the sand and saying that all's well with homosexuality and lesbianism.

One arguement is that they seem harmless and personal only. Those presently practicing homosexual and lesbian lifestyles may argue that the other person was willing. So where is the problem if no further distortion exists?

The problem can be looked at from two points of view. The first is what you are missing by not having a good heterosexual marriage. The second is the problems caused to a person (and the effect thereby on society). I'll deliberately start with the second, as it's the negative, and end up on the first, as it's the positive.

Any sexual distortion creates problems (even those of a heterosexual nature). God equally condemned to death those practising adultery. He condemns anything outside of sex within marriage. Why?

I read through the Scriptures and feel a great love for certain prophets. I have a great love for my mother, brother and stepfather. I love and admire deeply a woman who's happily married. I love her for her oneness with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and she has been a great example to me. But I have no desire at all to have sex with her, because that isn't the nature of our relationship. Us loving people is a good and righteous thing. Sex is a good, righteous and natural thing for having children _ that is its purpose. In having sex with a husband or wife, a person is fulfilling this natural thing.

The Apostle Paul states that by following the flesh he could never be free, and following Christ as is required. He states that it was only by submitting the flesh to the will of his spirit and that of the Holy Spirit that he could have true freedom and follow Christ (Refer Romans 8:4-14).

The flesh will always lead astray. All sexual acts contrary to that which God ordained were born to the flesh, and servitude to its desires. Servitude to the flesh creates theft, greed, covetousness, murder, violence, sexual abuse, war, family break-ups and every other evil. Homosexuality and lesbianism are all destructive of the person, no matter who they are. Only ceasing these things will bring true happiness.

But to get to a better point _ what are people missing by not being in a good heterosexual marriage? Any married couple, by putting aside selfishness, can achieve a wonderful, spirit centred marriage. But this also requires a putting aside the desires of the flesh. The marriage must be centred on the spiritual and your relationship with the Father and Son. You must be listening to the Holy Ghost for guidance in the ways of truth. Can a righteous man or woman not totally love and admire a righteous person? And if this person is your marriage partner, living in a relationship as God stated (man - woman) there is no greater thing.

If your marriage isn't / wasn't like this it is because you aren't righteous, and therefore must change to become so. It's no good blaming the partner until personal righteousness is obtained (and then you'll know better than to blame someone else anyway). 1 Corinthians 10:13 tells us that any sin that tempts us is also given to everyone else, but that God won't allow you to be tempted beyond your ability to resist, and He'll make a way for you to get out of it. So no one HAS to sin. Only the devil wants you to believe such nonsense.

We all know that everybody has sinned at some time in our life (Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8), but we don't need to continue doing so once we grab the point (1 John 2:15-17, 1 John 2:9-10). With a marriage centred around love and Gods' commandment to have children ("..be fruitful and multiply.." Gen 1:28) a perfect and whole union will exist. As the couple serve God and mankind together so their love and respect for each other will expand and expand.

Isn't this what anyone would want? Try God's way COMPLETELY for a year and see what you end up. God knows what He's talking about. That is the hardest lesson for us to learn. Children often think that they know better than their parents. We have the same problem with our Heavenly Father. Things SEEM different to the way He says they are, until we sincerely try it His way, and then we see in time that He's right. The law of tithing doesn't make logical sense until you do it sincerely wanting to follow God. Then watch what happens. Is it logical that you can give away 10% of what you have and end up better off (Ref Malachi 3:10-12)? The answer ought to be "no". But it works in spite of that, as I can tell you from personal experience.

Equally so do all of Gods' instructions work. All sexual acts outside of a righteous marriage situation will not bring you anything like the wonderful experience you can have, and that God wants you to have also.

If you have had this problem and want to overcome it, there is hope. Firstly you have to accept that you AREN'T genetically predispositioned to practice homosexual or lesbian lifestyles. As surely as no-one is predispositioned to go for blondes. You are only mentally predispositioned by your experiences. And therefore all you have to do is re-program your thinking.

So don't give up just because you still have incorrect orientations after a month. It can take years. But I can assure you that as surely as people give up lust completely, so orientations can be changed.

55 comments:

Jake said...

With all due respect, this is a poorly reasoned piece. I am attracted to women, but whether I am attracted to blonde or brunette women has nothing to do with the argument of a genetic link to same sex attraction, because regardless of hair color, weight, or skin tone, they are all women.

Here's where your analogy fails. Every day I see men with all different hair colors and body types. If it were only about physical attributes and not gender, then by your analogy, I should be attracted to men with the same attributes I like in women. But no matter how hard I focus on the color of a man's hair, it's not going to make me sexually atrracted to him, because I am attracted to women. It's GENDER attraction, and I can't change that about myself, because I didn't choose it in the first place.

yeti said...

I have yet to read this, but I have already decided that I will disagree... oops. that is not really a good way to go about life. test all things, cling to that which is good. So I am hypercritical, and maybe that is not a bad thing always. But i do know that you are wise, and think through things, so i may agree with you yet.

Doug Towers said...

Jake

A good thought. I can see where you are coming from. In that sense it would appear you are right that I should have worded it better.

I wasn't saying that all there is to relationships is physical attraction. I was quoting this issue as part of the situation. I have approached the genetic issue in full further on.

Yet I feel that you would agree that physical attraction is part of that which would need altering and where a problem exists.

And this is in our minds rather than our genes.

Doug Towers said...

Yeti

Thanks for the complement and the input. I'll be interested to hear any further thoughts.

yeti said...

I have to say; I didn't disagree as much as I thought I would, and the thing that probably bothered me the most throughout your post is really not something worth being bothered about. Namely that you felt a need to say "homosexuality and Lesbianism" when I do believe that lesbianism fits into the greater category of homosexual. It is redundant.

I used to believe that if Homosexuality was wrong then it couldn't be genetic. I was trying to stick up for God, not wanting to believe that he would create people trapped in sin and destined to Hell. Therefore, if Homosexuality was genetic, then it had to be acceptable, but that seemed to strongly go against what the Bible taught.
I guess I have come now to a third conclusion (If you can call it that). We live in a fallen world. Things happen that are not as God created them or desired them to be. I think of conjoined twins, when one has to die, downs syndrome, FAS, drug addicted babies. This world is not the way it ought to be, and I think this is a direct result of living in a world of sin.
Scientifically, I don't know if kids are born homosexual, I do know for many it is something they can choice to change. (I dont think many chose to be homosexual(although as out society becomes more accepting of sexual distortion, this is changing), i think it is the path put infront of them which comes the easiest, i do think some can chose to come out of that, and exactly how easy that will be strongly varies)Our society definitely distorty sexuality, and it is sick.
I could never tell someone that they weren't born homosexual, because honestly, I don't know. What I do know is that with God's help they can overcome it. If God can heal the man born blind, then he can heal the man born gay. I don't think the origin is worth all that debate.
I speak of this a little bit personally. I did at one time have to chose to say "I don't want homosexuality to be part of my story" (it also had something to do with God saying "get out of this situation"), and sometimes still thoughts will come into my head that I need to quickly do away with. But I don't always find myself particularly attracted to guys either, which I think is okay, and maybe if the "right man" comes into my life that will change, and until then it doesn't need to.
whatta ya think?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

Particularly when becoming sexually aware distortions can occur. I had several 5 second feelings toward guys when going through that early stage.

As long as people are aware of what this is it is fine. But, as you say, our society has many sexual distortions.

I have to get back to the fact that animals don't pursue these lifestyles as a demonstration that they aren't genetic.

As to our attractions, we have control over these things and can manipulate our thinking and heart's perseptions by mindwashing processes. Really the physical is just a collection of particles. How we percieve these particles is entirely in our heads and our heart's response to those thoughts.

As to men and women as beings (the spirit and intelligence inside); I can love a good man as much as I can love a good woman. The point is, however, that the expression of the relationship using sex must be that which would create children - the purpose of sex.

Sex should be conducted in a loving way in which lust nor pride should come into it. It is for 2 loving people to feel their love one for another and express it in the creation of children.

It is not a toy. Threated as such it will cause misery and blocking of the individual.

yeti said...

Are you saying that you think the only purpose for sex is children?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

Qualifying first that I speak as only one LDS and not a representative of all members. The answer to your question is - I KNOW that it is.

yeti said...

so, does that mean you think old grandparents shouldn't have sex anymore? like once a woman reaches menopause should she stop being sexually intimate with her husband?

Doug Towers said...

yeti

This is a heavy concept for people, and I know that many would have trouble with it. People must go with how they feel.

How will my words affect the consciences of others?

Yet the answer lies in the method of having sex. Gods conduct sex differently from almost all people. The act of having sex in a godlike manner is an extremely loving and totally unphysically focused action. It is a spirit to spirit action (no pelvic actions), though the body is momentarily required. The act is done because of love and a desire to make each other parents.

This type of love is passed between such people all the time, so no formal additional action is necessary otherwise.

yeti said...

not gunna lie, you're confusing me greatly. I feel as if you are talking softly, almost as if in a code as to not offend passer-byers. if this be so, feel free to send me email, and explain straight out what it is that you are trying to say.
I don't love people so much so that I desire 'em to be parents? are you suggesting that is the purest of loves? or the most intimate? If sex is about the spirit to spirit then should grandparents stop having that kind of sex but continue on with the physical action?

i am confused

Doug Towers said...

yeti

email sent. If you dont' get it let me know.

Denidowi said...

Yeti
I am believing, as modern prophets have said, that sex carries 2 meanings in our life and existence, not just one.
As Doug said, it is there for our having children - to perpetuate the race and bring families from Heaven into earthly living.
However, there is no doubt that it is also an expression of love and feelings for someone of the opposite sex.
God has commanded that we use it only in the sacred bonds of marriage between a male and a female; it is not given sanction in any other way.
It is of interest that God has shared with us His most sacred power - that of aiding Him to carry out His most important creative work and enabling His most loving creation - that of bringing His own children to this earth. He has therefore, implanted the capacity of romantic love and that love is most fully expressed in the pure and maximum union between a man and a woman. Joining with one's spouse is a natural outcome of the most intimate of expressions and desires for love of one's spouse.
So, if having children be the 'mechanics' of joining as one, the expression of the greatest love between 2 people be the spiritual means of enabling that creative power to come to physical fruition.

Doug Towers said...

denidowi

A common opinion. I'll leave you to consider any further that you may wish to.

Denidowi said...

Well, this person actually stated that she was becoming "confused" by your perceived view.
But truth does not "confuse"; it is merely REJECTED - that is true ... but it does not confuse. It is mainly that it just cannot be accepted or Believed to be so wonderful by many - that is the problem with truth, for most people.

The Blog is being believed by many of these passers-by to be some 'authority' on 'Mormon Doctrine' ... so you cannot say, "The answer to your question is - I KNOW that it is." with regard to the role and purpose of 'sex'.
The prophets teach that it has 2 major purposes, not one.
Personally, I can readily 'see' that.
I also see that Love is the basis of true power - and God wishes Miraculous power as the instigator and catalyst that creates new life.
This comes from the sacrifice of a man and woman for each other proven over time and patience. This in turn propels them to want to join together Forever.
"Wherefore, they are no more twain, but one flesh".

Doug Towers said...

denidowi

It is because so many read the site that I have to be cautious in what I say. Therefore I regard it to be wise to not speak beyond a certain point on some subjects, as the Holy Ghost gives me the wisdom to discern.

I must say that I don't recall any prophet specifically saying that sex was for pleasure to improve the marriage. But if you'd like to share some quotes feel quite wecome to do so.

Denidowi said...

"Pleasure", Doug??!!

Doug Towers said...

denidowi

Present your evidence of what you feel prophets have said where they specifically declare sex to be used for the improvement of marriage beyond the value of having children.

kh said...

After reading the excellent article recently in the Desert News online with the conversation with Elders Oaks and Wickman, I have learned so much more on this subject. We did not have sexual desires as spirits nor will we after we die ... except those prepared for eternal life (couples having been sealed together for time and eternity) but they recognize having no longer the means to express that part of their marriage (phyical intimacy) they so look upon their current post-mortal spirit existence as a bondage. It is not a sin to have same gender attraction but acting upon any sexual desire outside of marriage as defined by God (male and female) is moral transgression. Some people have a stronger inclination for same gender attraction than others. It is their weakness. A lot of people have a difficult time controlling their sexual desires either way. The flesh is the weakness. Our bodies are telestial and "Naturally" want to follow those telestial tendencies. Our spirit being celestial desires to follow celestial laws. Thus the "war within" as the apostle Paul puts it. Struggling to gain control over our natural man or woman desires and tendencies is one of the greatest challenges we face here on earth. The bottom line is this... either we give into our natural human telestial tendencies and commit sin or we let the Holy Ghost team up if you will with our celestial spirits to conform to the laws of God while in the flesh and prepare to meet God as the Gospel requires. This requires total celebacy before marriage and complete fidelity after marriage. All single people must remain celebate or sin "lieth at the door." We do not know why some people struggle with any weakness they have. But God gives them to us personally for us to rely on Him to overcome. I agree for the most part of what Doug said about the purpose of sex... It is always referred to by the Lord as (the "powers of procreation" not the powers of recreation.)The world, led by Satan, tries to justify and glorify the telestial lifestyle. Whereas latter-day saints we promote the celestial lifestyle and urge all to keep our desires within the bounds the Lord has set. Only then can we be free and happy. When we die the lusts of the flesh are destroyed, meaning sexual desires end for all except those who have learned to control them in righteousness.

Doug Towers said...

kh

Thanks for the support.

I agree with almost all you have said (considering you've said a lot that is good). I just have trouble with the way a couple of things are worded. I would tend to quilify my thoughts on that more clearly, least I be misinterpreted in my support.

"We do not know why some people struggle with any weakness they have. But God gives them to us personally for us to rely on Him to overcome."

That seems a little simplistic in presentation. The reason why people struggle with weaknesses is that we have two sides to each equation. We have the reasons why we feel we should do something and the reasons why we feel we shouldn't. The question becomes, "which is largest." In addition to this our spirit within us may present its feelings as in opposition to the final conclusion of our mind. If we listen to our spirit well enough we can find ourselves divided - our mind seeking one thing and our spirit constantly standing in opposition (as you have mentioned in regard Paul's statement of the conflict with the flesh for those not following the gospel in its fulness).

In these cases we must try what Heavenly Father has presented and the Holy Spirit directs us to do.

While God knew that these challenges would come up in our life (and may have even put us in a position to explore and overcome them through struggle), he didn't actually make us ignorant nor make us such as that this would present a problem to us. We are a totally independant being. God can't interfere with our inner being.

The way the statement is made could tend to imply that. So I would want to qualify that point.

I do like the statement you made _

"It is always referred to by the Lord as (the "powers of procreation" not the powers of recreation.)"

kh said...

Thank you for your support and comments. I agree I didn't clarify my remarks as well as I should have, so I will try now. What I meant when I wrote - "We do not know why some people struggle with any weakness they have. But God gives them to us personally for us to rely on Him to overcome." -
was we are not someone else. We know what we need to work on for us personally but we do not know what another person is currently going through (of course unless they relate those things to us personally). We have not been through what they have been through or are going through at this time. Everybody struggles with different things throughout their lives. All of the reasons that we have the struggles we have has not being entirely revealed yet. We learn as we go. I was trying to say and I failed to clarify this too was as all things are given to us to help us "Come unto Him" meaning Christ and thus the Father. We have the gospel and share the gospel with others because we know as Latter-day Saints that only with the aid of the Holy Ghost can we truly overcome all things through Him who has overcome all things even Christ, the Lord. This applies with same gender attraction very well. The best way not to sin (Acting upon our sexual desires, straight or otherwise) is to have an understanding what bounds the Lord has set confirmed to us by the Holy Ghost that God's standard of conduct must be our standard of conduct. Yes we all have a conscience, the Light of Christ, which does try to inspire us with the understanding of right and wrong. As you said, "We are a totally independant being. God can't interfere with our inner being." I was trying to say that God wants us to look to him for strength through knowledge of the truth and added help from the Holy Ghost to "help" us overcome these weaknesses if, as the BOM states, (Ether 12:6) we humble ourselves before Him. Hope this helps, thanks again.

kh said...

sorry Ether 12:27 memory lapse

Denidowi said...

kh,
Would you please specify the link or address of the conversation article between Elders Oaks and Wickman??
I would be interested in it.

Thank you

Doug Towers said...

kh

Thanks for that qualification. I see where you are coming from now, and have to completely agree.

kh said...

Here's the link: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/same-gender-attraction I hope this helps. Here is another written by a former bishop of a single's ward. It is very well wriiten - Bearing Our Crosses Gracefully: Sex and the Single Mormon.

Denidowi said...

Kh,

This article is presenting that fundamentally, sexual orientation is not inherited, or the tendency is not in-born, yet Elder Wickman more or less treats it as if it is in that news conversation between himself and Elder Oaks.
“Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.
The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.”
Later, speaking of his own daughter’s physical infirmities, he states:
“Courtney didn’t ask for the circumstances into which she was born in this life, any more than somebody with same-gender attraction did.”
Elder Oaks, however, earlier said:
‘The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.’
And when Elder Wickman expresses this view, Elder Oaks immediately Qualifies these thoughts of Elder Wickman in a short concise statement that virtually sets the record straight:
“Let me just add a thought to that. There is no fullness of joy in the next life without a family unit, including a husband, a wife, and posterity. Further, men are that they might have joy. In the eternal perspective, same-gender activity will only bring sorrow and grief and the loss of eternal opportunities.”

Denidowi said...

He further says, later:
“It is sometimes said that God could not discriminate against individuals in this circumstance. But life is full of physical infirmities that some might see as discriminations — total paralysis or serious mental impairment being two that are relevant to marriage. If we believe in God and believe in His mercy and His justice, it won’t do to say that these are discriminations … because God wouldn’t discriminate. We are in no condition to judge what discrimination is. We rest on our faith in God and our utmost assurance of His mercy and His love for all of His children.”

Absolute trust in God’s faithfulness to us – is my interpretation – and His plan for ‘escape’ from that condition in the eternal world
My overall understanding is more in harmony with that which the more recent prophets themselves have stated from the General Conference pulpits on this type of subject, when they have finished their counsel with the words, referring to homosexual tendencies possibly being ‘in-born’, “in relatively few, if any, cases…”
So, if one were to ask what the Church’s official position on being physically ‘preset’ to effeminate, or even homosexual, tendencies based on it being something physically in-born, that is it:
“If it occurs at all, it is something that is ‘in relatively few, if any, cases’”

As pertaining to Elder Wickman’s view that instincts or dispositions suddenly change at death, the prophet Alma said: “… Ye cannot say … that ye will repent, Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” Etc.

So, I am taking my counsel from the prophets themselves – that we are under obligation to attempt to rid ourselves of such unearthly tendencies.
As to our feelings and attraction to our wives in the eternal world, I think Elder Oaks finishes:
“Those choicest blessings are associated with marriage between a man and a woman by appropriate priesthood authority to bring together a family unit for creation and happiness in this life AND in the life to come.
[Don’t act on sexual inclinations outside of marriage… They are reserved for the sacred bonds of marriage between a man and a woman.]
That is the way to happiness and eternal life.”

kh said...

Denidowi,

I agree we need to do everything in our power and help from above to rid ourselves of all of our natural man or woman tendencies. Sanctification through the Holy Ghost is the only way to achieve this.Having sexual desires in and of themselves is not the sin. Paraphrasing here from one of Doug's earlier posts, "Transgression of the law is sin. It takes physical action to transgress the law. Unrighteous desires are a violation of the law of the gospel." Failing to keep our "conduct" within the bounds the Lord has set is where people get into trouble. I felt that these two GA's were trying to explain to anyone who has those same gender attractions that if they are struggling to rid themselves of them that they must never act upon them or moral transgressions will result,"same-gender "activity" will only bring sorrow and grief and the loss of eternal opportunities.” As long as a single person remains celibate, then that person is not sinning. I seems to me that what Elder Wickman was saying is in order to have sexual desires it requires a body. I added my own opinion that those prepared for eternal life (faithful members sealed by the sealing power of the priesthood) would be the only ones having proven themselves to keep them within the bounds the Lord has set as the only ones who would ever have them again in eternity. When we die the sexual desires (they are physical only) die with the body. Same gender attracted individuals are free in the next life to find their future eternal companions providing that those same gender attracted individuals have been true and faithful to all of their gospel covenants in this life. As far as mental or physical disabilities are concerned we agreed to have each and everyone of them before we came here. We accepted the limitations under which we would experience our earth life existance. I agree I too will follow the wise counsel of the Lord's servants with the aid from the Holy Ghost to overcome my own natural man tendencies and imperfections as I strive to prepare myself to "meet God". Thanks again.

kh said...

Sorry I missed this one.

"As pertaining to Elder Wickman’s view that instincts or dispositions suddenly change at death, the prophet Alma said: “… Ye cannot say … that ye will repent, Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” If we do not "commit sin" (physical transgression)there is nothing to repent of in the next life. Remember our spirits do not have sexual desires in the first place nor will they in the next life unless we are prepared for eternal life. Only exalted people will ever have any sexual desires in eternity. Thanks again.

Denidowi said...

kh

Thanks for the input and response.

It is true and certainly not disputed by any in this discussion that if we overcome our desires by not transgressing the law, or by repenting of our grievances, that we will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of our God, and if totally obedient, we be prepared for that eternal life which God has promised and given to all the just, true and faithful.

On the other hand, what I am offering is that, according to Alma, should we transgress the law and remain unrepentent, we should suffer those same spiritual desires after this life that we entertained and engaged DURING this life.
In other words, I am somewhat reserved in making a hasty assessment that we will not feel the pangs or pains of sexual attraction, even though we do not actually have the bodies to carry out-satisfy those desires. I am saying (at least at this stage of my understanding) that we will continue to be the same people after this life as during - including the same habits and desires.

Now, to develop on this, you may well recall how vividly the scriptures repeatedly affirm that for the "wicked", "there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth".
This is so, I believe, because they cannot carry out many of their carnal desires (which are still built into their spirits after this life) - including desires for vengeance and wanting to 'thump', rape, torture and physically hurt other people.
Because of their enormous frustrations at NOT being able to carry out those wicked deeds they performed on earth, for them, as they are 'imprisoned', there shall be weeping and wailing and a gnashing or teeth at now being able to access these things!!

They are not going to suddenly just lose all desires.

Denidowi said...

Sorry kh, a misplaced letter:
The latter should read: "There shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth at NOT being able to access these worldly things that they had built into their make-ups.
These same frustrated desires will continue WITH them into the eternal world - and they will not be able to 'satisfy' them.
Hence why we need to live in the spirit.

kh said...

Denidowi

Thanks again for this conversation, I have enjoy this discussion.
I agree those who have "committed sin" by living according to the lust of the flesh will suffer for those things they have done in the body if they do not repent. Satan, for instance, does not have sexual desires. That is one of the reasons he tries so hard to get us who do have them to be filled with the lust of the flesh and then commit sexual sin thereby. Hormones, chemical biological reactions are why we have those physical sexual desires. Spirits do not have hormones to have such desires. The wicked who refuse to repent are not lusting after other spirits but their sins committed with their physical bodies cause misery and agony for which their spirits suffer. Sexual desire isn't required to feel pain and anquish for sexual sins. The spiritual desires you speak of pertain to desiring to be obedient to the commandments of God or to rebel against those commandments. I see this as if we have desires to do good and not sin those (not sexual desires) will be our righteous desires after we die. If we desire to have sex but do not commit sin by acting on those sexual desires unrighteously, we will not have them to continue to struggle with them after we die, whereas we have passed the tests of controlling them in this life. Those who acted upon them in any unrighteousness and refuse to repent, still will not have them but the anguish of soul, the state of hell, results from rebelling against righteousness. Mosiah 2:38 says it very well. There are faithful latter-day saints, temple worthy saints who are struggling with same gender attraction but refuse to give into those desires and thus avoid sin. The temple worthy question,"Do you live the law of chasity?" has to do with actions not desires. If no moral transgressions have taken place then there has not been any violation of the law itself.
thanks again

Doug Towers said...

Interesting discusion guys

Denidowi said...

kh,

Thanks for your thoughts.
Well, of course, with regard the punishments of hell, and re the punishment of "guilt" searing the consciences of the wicked in open shame, I believe an acknowledgment of that aspect of "ternal punishment" would be considered "a given" - not merely to our faith, but to all Christians.
What is probably not so well known is the aspect of which I spoke: that our spirits continue in the nature and habits of sin, even without their bodies. It is the sheer frustration at not being able to satisfy those habits and tendencies for the worldly and carnal that comprises another very real aspect of their eternal punishment; so I would simply add that the "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" comprises 'ALL of the above'. With regard some sins, the Lord has said that "it would be better that a millstone had been hung about their necks and cast into the sea" and that in other cases "it would have been better that they had never been born than that they should offend...", etc.
Another authority, [I cannot remember who] once explained that part of the frustration and pains of those souls in hell is that they cannot physically fight, punch and hurt one another. A great part of the pangs of the wicked will include the fact that the wicked can no longer carry out the sins of the flesh, though these tendencies for, and personal practices, may have formed a very real part of their lives. These tendencies are 'built into the make up'.
The Lord Himself has also declared that the dead also see the loss of their bodies as some kind of imprisonment - which is why they also look forward to the day of their resurrection, and why the last to be raised from the dead be the wicked: they must "pay the uttermost farthing".

After this terrible price has been paid, the wicked must stand to be judged [as all] and will then be raised to some level of glory, but before this occurs, "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ". This too, must happen for even the wicked to be atoned for - such that they too may receive a kingdom of glory and be raised from the dead - for God "will force no man" to ANY kingdom or reward.
Having paid the uttermost farthing, they will be ready to abide the law of the telestial, though previously, they were Satan's ... such that only the sons of perdition remain without glory to face eternity with the devil and his angels.
There shall remain "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" - So do carnal desires remain??

kh said...

Denidowi,

Spiritual desires are many. To the righteous, desiring to be good and do good start with love and unselfishness. To the wicked, selfishness and pride combine together to form rebellion. The wicked suffer for their rebellion against righteousness just as their master, Lucifer. Those who want to fight and hurt others are filled with anger and hatred which leads to rebellion as well. The wicked suffer the wrath of God because they have evil spiritual desires that are not sexual but are those that Lucifer has mentioned above.(selfishness, pride, hatred of righteousness and anger) Yes, the previously sexually active engrossed in moral transgressions remember prefectly well what they did wrong but again they suffer the wrath of God in hell for rebelling against righteousness. You do not have to have sexual desires to suffer for sexual sins. Agony and misery are common for all of the wicked whether sexual sin or violent behavior or dishonesty. These two scriptures come to mind. Prov. 17: 11 as well as D&C 138: 37 Christ sent the righteous dead to proclaim to the wicked who have rebelled against God. Carnal desires are selfish desires. I still feel that sexual desires are only available to the righteous in the resurrection and belong to the body only. Non physical desires as mentioned above remain.

Denidowi said...

kh,

Personally, I believe you are being too limiting, when you consider that "eternal punishment is God's punishment" [Moses].
It transcends ALL ... it transcends all aspects of being.
One cannot possibly assume after-life that the spirit feels exactly all that it was before birth. That is the whole purpose of life - to add that fuller, more complete, aspect of a character built largely around the possession of a body: the spirit and its newly-acquired habits and tendencies have become a large measure of who this individual, at death, now is - which is what Alma was referring to.
Tendencies, inclinations and habits do not just stop when the body disappears for a period.
These people who want to fight, engage in bickering, deceit, sexual aggrandizement, time invested in such, etc., etc., - ALL these tendencies go with the individual at death. But part of the anguish is that they cannot be satisfied NOR can they properly be engaged once disembodied - ALL of this forms part of the pains and anguish of soul at death. They are now built into their spirits and time use, etc etc.
Can you not imagine the severe frustration at no longer being able to hurt somebody you hate, for instance??
Only by retaining these tendencies can they feel the full weight of the law - which many must face, according to the laws and declarations of God's holy Word.
These frustrations, along with the things that you have mentioned, all form part of the sheer pangs and anguishes of hell - and their consciences must be seared for all these things like a hot iron - as holy writ declares - until they have paid the uttermost senine.
Then by the redemption of Christ, they shall be redeemed to a Kingdom of Glory - all except sons of perdition.
Now these sons of perdition will be 'without law' still and must remain "filthy still".
Therefore, when they receive their resurrected bodies, what shall their desires and tendencies be??
Do you think they will engage physical and other fights there?? ... but not really be able to inflict physical pain??

kh said...

I guess we are approaching this from two different aspects or points. People do have a bright recollection of all of their guilt for the transgressions (Physical violations of the law) they have committed in this life. Those who want to hurt someone (they being filled with anger) but can't would be frustrated I guess (it's hard for me to feel that way since I am striving to have love fill my heart always.) But as I see it, all sin no matter how it is committed is the result of unrighteous desires. We do receive according to our desires."Lusting" is intense selfish desire. "Pure love" is intense selfless desire. To hate someone means to hate self, to hate God and hate righteousness so those who hate rebel against God. The punishment comes from rebellion against righteousness. The sons of perdition suffer the greatest punishment - total darkness and live a hate filled world. They do not have sexual desires but are always filled with hate, pain, agony and misery. I understand that you feel everyone carries with them each and every desire and attribute spiritually into the spirit world for that which they chose to acquire in this life. I am not disagreeing with that except as Elder Wickman stated that sexual desire is only for this life with a body. I understand that you feel the once sexually immoral ones when they die would continue to want to keep committing sexual sins and can't without a body. But their punishment isn't caused from frustration over that. Quite the opposite. They suffer spiritual agony for rebellion against the laws of righteousness. The wicked are in agony because they lost the desire for sex and must reap pain and agony for violating the sacred laws of God in the first place. They wish they could feel those sexual desires again but can't. They are gone for good. The knowledge of never being able to experience any sexual desire or gratification again is their agony. They hate themselves for what they have done. They gnash their teeth and wail in agony for the sins they have committed. The pain that they have caused others they now feel as if they had those things done unto themselves. They are in agony because the laws of justice requires pain and sorrow, misery and woe. But those who haven't committed sexual sin have no pain but joy. They are free from struggling to overcome the natural man tendencies because they did not "act" upon them. Let's just agree that you and I are going to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the discussion I have enjoyed it.

Denidowi said...

I think the problem with your accepting the thrust of what I am saying lies in your absolute acceptance of the idea Elder Wickman was stating – probably more for the fact that he is a General Authority.
But there is NOTHING anywhere in LDS scripture or of Church-accepted doctrine that actually backs up or states that view: it is a view entirely arrived at by himself.
And it is not as if he is declaring it from the pulpits of General Conference. These are merely personal thoughts stated in a personal interview; they are not necessarily “doctrine”.
Joseph Smith himself, expressed personal views at times, but would never go to the length of declaring them as personal scripture: even the prophets express personal thoughts outside the rank of their prophetic calling.
You will note that Elder Oaks responded to all that Elder Wickman had said at that point, and nothing he said actually directly supported the view Elder Wickman had taken.

“Let me just add a thought to that. There is no fullness of joy in the next life without a family unit, including a husband, a wife, and posterity. Further, men are that they might have joy. In the eternal perspective, same-gender activity will only bring sorrow and grief and the loss of eternal opportunities.”

Those 2 middle sentences seem to be mildly hinting that producing children by use of the body between a husband and a wife [in other words, ‘being a man in full and pure love with his wife’] is a major part of what causes and promotes “a fullness of joy” and a completeness of person. “Men are that they might have joy,” is his point.

And the good news is, Kh, that it seems to me that we are actually now moving closer to some common understanding on this topic, if you look closer at some things you have said in this latter post:

“Those who want to hurt someone (they being filled with anger) but can't would be frustrated.’

‘I understand that you feel everyone carries with them each and every desire and attribute spiritually into the spirit world for that which they chose to acquire in this life. I am not disagreeing with that except as Elder Wickman stated that sexual desire is only for this life with a body.
…….
“They wish they could feel those sexual desires again but can't. They are gone for good. The knowledge of never being able to experience any sexual desire or gratification again is their agony. They hate themselves for what they have done.”

This is largely what I have been getting at … in addition to virtually all else that you have said about their full consciousness of guilt before a pure and just God, which I agree with totally …
The only thing that leaves questions for me is the complete redundancy of the gift which men and women possessed in this life for all else who did not make ‘eternal life’. They remain as men and women: then what’s the point?
So it seems to me like there is more that we do not know concerning their state and existence.

kh said...

Denidowi,

I agree that Elder Wickman is stating his personal opinion and that Elder Oaks chose not to correct the lost of sexual desire statement. It is not clear whether Elder Oaks agreed or not with the statement Elder Wickman made but maybe he just decided to let it go.

Actually Joseph Fielding Smith said his personal belief was only the exalted ones would remain male and female in the resurrection. His statement came about in Doctrines of Salvation from Galations - the "neither male nor female" verse. Sexless angels in essence. I do not know enough if I agree with his opinion or not, but I am not worried either way, it won't effect me. The proclamation on the family seems to disagree with Elder Smith's opinion,"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Of course, the eternal identity and purpose could pertain to exaltation only. Definately the "purpose" is exclusive to eternal lives.
I am very glad we agree on most of what each other has posted.

Doug Towers said...

Denidowi

Some thoughts in regard things you've said.

You have said that those in outer darkness will have gnashing of teeth etc, because they are missing the sexual stuff. But those in the Telestial Kingdom will be in the same position. Yet they won't have any gnashing of teeth etc by the resurrection.

I would hold that kh's point in regard automatic judgement is an idea that is far from a "given" amongst Protestants or even church members, for that matter. The vast majority believe in a magic God in judgement that will speak and send people to a God imposed reward.

In regard atonement for the wicked that will receive the Telestial, the only atonement Christ made for them is that he paid the price for original sin, by dying that he could make the resurrection possible. This has nothing to do with their sins themselves.

An interesting question; you have stated _

..."consciences must be seared for all these things like a hot iron - as holy writ declares - until they have paid the uttermost senine."

Yet Christ stated that while in prison you can't pay even one senine (3 Nep 12:26). Hmmm???

I think you have to be careful when implying that the sexual act is a reason why married Gods have a fulness of joy, rather than the having of continual families - which is all he stated.

Doug Towers said...

kh and Denidowi

You have questioned in regard those to suffer the second death _

"Therefore, when they receive their resurrected bodies, what shall their desires and tendencies be??"

I would ask you to consider carefully the following idea that will fly in the face of all you have heard. Don't race in too fast with the obvious thought.

Are you sure that those who have a second death still have bodies when all this earth bit is finished? In regard the resurrection and those receiving the second death Joseph Smith received the following by revelation _

"And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yes, surely, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead..." D&C 76:37-39

So ALL the others shall be redeemed by the resurrection. But these won't. Joseph Smith isn't alone in this opinion by any means. I've only found one person in scripture who disagrees. But he live pre-Christ (a more ignorant time). Also his logic is flawed by ignorance. Don't bother quoting opinions of GAs on this one as they just quote that one person; let's stick to Scripture or something you know from experience.

You see the whole point of coming here was to get a body. Yes, we have to do the right thing with it etc. But the point was to get a body. Now why would the rebelious go along with God's plan and accept to resurrect those bodies? And why would it be better never to have been born?

A thought.


kh

I have to agree with your statement _

"You do not have to have sexual desires to suffer for sexual sins."

If this were not true then we wouldn't have to suffer at all when dead, as our sins came from passions of the flesh.

You have stated _

"They gnash their teeth and wail in agony for the sins they have committed. The pain that they have caused others they now feel as if they had those things done unto themselves."

While I agree that this creates the hell that we feel prior to the final resurrection, I believe that such feeling only goes until we feel we have paid the price. I have to agree with your parts about sufferring because of their present state. I kind of see it like a person continually shooting themselves in the foot and being too stupid and obstinant to accept that they must stop doing this to avoid the pain.

Brigham Young presented that we would be resurrecting ourselves. This makes sense as people will be resurrected with different bodies in glory. Thus some will be able to sustain the having of children. Whether there is more to it I don't know.

kh said...

Doug,

I have no problem with the souls who are guilty of becoming sons of perdition of rejecting the resurrection. They have already rejected everything else that pertains to the Father's plan of salvation, like their master Lucifer. That would be in agreement with agency. God cannot force anyone to accept any portion of His plan. Heber C Kimball and Brigham Young go further than the scripture you quoted. See Journal of Discourses 5:271-272 for Heber's remarks and 9:147 for Brigham's. They state that not only will the once mortal sons of perdition not be resurrected but loose their spirits as well and become mere intelligences again. Interesting thoughts from them.

kh said...

Doug

I found an interesting scripture.

D&C 19: 3
"Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done."
If Satan and his works (all of the sons of perdition) are "destroyed" that would agree with Heber C. Kimball's and Brigham Young's statements. If the Father's "work" and his glory is to bring about the "immortality and eternal life of man" then perhaps those who openly,wilfully reject His plan, the opposite of that occurs.
Thanks

kh said...

Spiritual death is the seperation from the things of righteousness. The first thing of righteousness that occurred for us was our Heavenly Parents, through the powers of procreation, created a spirit body for each of us as part of our "eternal progression". If God's plan is designed to help us progress then rejecting that plan would result in "digression", the opposite effect. Lucifer and all of the sons of perdition would be subject to the second death which would result in being seperated from "the things of righteousness" eternally. They would in essence digress back to before anything of righteousness occurred to them, when they were simple intelligences. Just a thought.

kh said...

This discussion can be taken to another level as well. The verse in D & C 76 about the sons of perdition and their suffering, verse 45 "... and the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;" The "end thereof" could mean the end of their having a spirit body. There are various types of intelligences in eternity. The Book of Abraham states this clearly in Chapter 3:18,19
18 “... if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” I know the Lord uses the word "spirits" but he is referring to intelligences here because our spirits had a beginning when we were begotten sons and daughters of heavenly parents. But our intelligence never did. Here is how I see it. Heavenly Father knows the destiny of each and every intelligence before they became his spirit children. He knew that the intelligences who would become Lucifer and those who would rebel with him and the mortal sons of perdition would serve as the opposition needed for the plan to work. Each “Eternal Round” is governed by the same eternal laws and principles for it to work perfectly. Once the final judgment is completed, Lucifer and his works “fruits of his labor” (getting billions to rebel openly against the Father’s plan) have served their purpose as the opposition needed for the plan to work. "Satan and his works are destroyed" meaning the Father then causes those rebellious spirits to loose their spirit bodies and digress back to mere intelligences prior to “the things of righteousness” occurring to them. (Starting with spirit body conception) They have “lost” all of the progress they have made as spirit children of God.

What if those intelligences are of “the type” that would rebel in the first place. Could they be used again and again over and over again throughout each eternal round after round as the opposition needed for the same perfect plan to work each time? That has not been revealed as of yet.

Just another thought. "It hath been better that they had never been born" could mean that Lucifer and all who suffer the second death have lost any progress they have made after they were born spiritually (spirit infants of heavenly parents.)
It would be nice for you Doug to maybe do a post of some of these ideas,On the eternal round, if you wanted to of course.

Denidowi said...

Sorry I missed your discussion of late, Guys ... family matters and all - you know how it is: it's a pretty Full earth life ;)

kh,
Can you be very specific upon the actual words and background or Link on that opinion you have believed emanated from the pens of Heber C Kimball adn Brigham Young re Sons of perdition seeking a final state of mere "intelligence" ... I must admit, I've been in the Church some quite long time, but have never heard that one before!
To be honest though, Guys, it wouldn't surprise me what stupidity and negativity exists 'out there'! I have certainly learned that it takes 'all sorts' to make a world, and Anything is possible here!! ;)
I must admit, the understanding that had distilled upon me was that ALL shall be resurrected, and I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, that Pres Joseph Fielding Smith stated that sons of perdition had entered into a pact with Satan, and the fact they would be resurrected meant they would 'rule over' hell ... if there really be such an order in hell! I think it might be more a case of every man and woman permanently for himself there.
Anyway, I'm sure it all is a case of what remains to be seen.

For whatever reason, I cannot state it, I am feeling more in align with the family Proclamation - that women and men have some eternal state and role in being men and women, and that it a a blessing in measure, that they will not lose.
Although many of these other kingdoms do not inherit that Fulness of Life, we have been informed that once they pay their dues, they will be satisfied with their lot. We have been informed that even the telestial Kingdom and state will be something far greater than we can possibly imagine while on this earth. So whatever the final state, it will be glorious - being a Kingdom of glory, nonetheless.

kh said...

Denidowi,

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/volume-05/

Heber C. Kimball, September 27, 1857
SPIRITUAL DISSOLUTION - IGNORANCE OF THE WORLD.A Discourse by President Heber C. Kimball, delivered in the Bowery, Sunday Afternoon, September 27, 1857. you will have to scroll down from the begininng of vol 5 to 271 to this title. Here's part of that discourse.

If I do not live my religion, but turn away from the principles of light and life, my spirit will die. You have heard me speak of that a great many times, and so you have brother Brigham. There are thousands upon thousands whose bodies will die by the power of the second death; and then they never will return again. Many call that annihilation.

Here's Brigham's quote. It is actually JD 9:150.

The first death is the separation of the spirit from the body; the second death is, as I have stated, the dissolution of the organized particles which compose the spirit, and their return to their native element.

This would agree with D & C 19:3 "Satan and his works destroyed" They have fulfilled their usefulness as the opposition to all righteousness.

Doug Towers said...

kh

Some interesting thoughts. I'll answer after I have a read and good think on it.

Doug Towers said...

kh

You've wondered about the statement in D&C 76 where it says "the end thereof." It seems to me to be talking of it in regard dimensions of the suffering. In verse 48 it qualifies it further by talking of the end, the width, the height, the depth and the misery.

I have sometimes wondered in regard D&C 93:39 which has light and truth (which is intelligence - what we are) as being diminished by disobedience. I have wondered therefore at how Satan even exists?

I have seen him, and it is true that he is darkness (though you can still see the spirit body). Yet he does exist in spite of his whole interest being toward evil. So as he has existed this long like that, I don't think he will be changing. But that is purely a theory. It may be that Heber and brigham were referring only to people who have received a body.

Lots to think about there.

You're thoughts in regard regurgitated evil spirits seems nice when you consider that otherwise we have to go through the process of losing one third of our spirit children to the dark side ever time. But I think that is a bit too optimistic. Heber and Brigham also seems to imply that those who lose their spirit bodies won't get them again.

Denidowi said...

Yes; I believe this body is all about setting up "Permanency", in terms of weight of glory - which of course, may also include no glory at all. So I can't really see some semi-reincarnation movement. Actually, a solid study of the scriptures generally, is also quite solid in the statement that from the ultimate Judgment, permanency results. Apparently, however God has organized life and existence, He has done so in a mannner that establishes that He is, verily, God, indeed.
And when God speaks ... when He judges, ALl is a FOREVER after thing.

He is in and through all things the God of all eternity.
The only reason our earth state, alone, is so changeable and decaying is that God, for a time, put all things into the hands of Adam - giving him complete "dominion" over all things connected with the earth.
If Adam had not partaken of the forbidden druit ALl things would have remained precisely as God created them, for He is the same Yesterday, today and Forever. He is a Forever God, and gets thigns perfectly right the very first time, including making a set up for which Permanent Judgment exists

Denidowi said...

BTW, kh...
Thank you for the Link.

Well, I guess anything is possible, and seeing that the body has the power to Bring an Endless glory and Endless Joy, I can only believe that, in opposition, it has the power to disintegrate "even all that which we have" ... and if scriptures tend to say, in places, that "It would be better for them that they had not been born", then one can only surmise that the things of which Brigham speaks might well be possible - if we have interpreted him correctly.
As there seem to be slightly different 'authoritative' thoughts on ultimate consignment of anything less than Exaltation, I figure we are going to have to wait and find out. Our main point is with Exaltation and its achievement.

Anonymous said...

I don't think there is any question as to this being a bad thing.

The bigger question is how to help solve it for those unhappily entrapped by this.

Obviously there are many who are not trapped but rather happy with it. And that becomes their choice.

I think there are an array of psycological and emotional reasons for this occuring but there has arisen a genetic abnormality that may suggest that in some cases, it could be genectically predisposed.

Being born both genders is not a choice, yet it suggests that there can exist a confused genetic dispostion.

I feel this trial of confused gender, weather genetically or psycologically formed, is the greatest trial a person must endure in this life.

Many have caved under the pressure and given themselves over to this and my heart goes out to them more than anything that might warrant compassion & understanding.

And many struggle with the desire but have held themselves in reserve.

What worse circumstances could possibly exist for a person who's life is completely halted as far as the plan of salvation is concerned, or damed if engauged in and goes unrepentant?

My greatest desire is for someone with God's power to enter our lives and be able to address this most undesirable of all trials in life for those who suffer with it and don't feel comfortable.

For those who engauge in it but don't suffer, they have damed themselves.

Satan is a horrible being who has stolen the lives of many children of God through this most abominable temptation.

I hope the man that God eventually sends us to bring us to a higher spiritual level and lead us to Zion, will be able to unravel these mysteries and help those wanting or needing help, to unscramble the image of self, whether it is genetic or otherwise.

And I do believe those answers we need exist.

And I say WE need these answers so that those who suffer, which includes ALL of us who may have a friend or loved one involved in this, may find real happiness in having their self image being placed in it's proper order and reaping the blessings that come from Heavenly Relationships.

God help us with this one.

Doug Towers said...

Anonymous

I can only say that it is true that I feel softness toward women. And this seems fairly common amongst men and women.

I am aware of the fact that I am to marry women and not a man. It is also true that I can easily fall in love with a woman IF I so choose. But the point is choice.

I also have NO desire toward lustful sex with females. I don't walk down the street and feel desires toward women's bodies.

I feel love for men and for women. But sex and marriage are reserved only for those women whom GOD chooses for me to marry. I have no need to express sexual desires with women. I have been there and felt that. But I have learnt better.

Any person with strong feelings toward the same sex can change these feelings by drawing closer to God. It is most definitely curable.

Alex said...

I disagree with this entire article. Here is why.
I feel that a lot of people confuse emotional satisfaction with sexual satisfaction. I will explain. There are numerous amount of homosexual men that have had sexual relations with the opposite sex. I feel as though they do this because it is socially acceptable to have a sexual relationship more with the opposite sex then the same sex. So some, to cope, perform such sexual acts. However they never fully are invested emotionally. The male never really is in love emotionally as to always think of how they have connected to the female. He enjoys the females company and enjoys the pleasure she can provide him. However, he never really feels fulfilled. The female counter part feels the same way, however like most instances justifies her intuition and pursues on with a relationship that has not a firm foundation of emotional awareness of love. The female is genuinely attracted to men and does not know why the relationship does not work properly. So she commits the most common mistake, she blames herself. She then tries what is not a normal behavior and changes her actions and what she feels she can change to meet the requirements of the her male, in turn she loses herself and her self-esteem to self-worth. Self-esteem and self-worth is taught to women at a young age, for some reason females are more susceptible to demeaning themselves then males are, so this is a behavior that is taught to young women at an early age. I do not feel that church teaches women self-worth and great self-esteem because of all the homosexual men but because females for some reason find that they need to change because they are not good enough, in the general aspect rather than specific situations. The male will after a while seek what has been missing in his life, emotional satisfaction. Most of the time he is seeking this without the realization. Most of the time, it finds him. There are many men that have had the realization of their identity when the have come in contact with the same sex that is different from all other males they have come in contact with. It may be a co-worker and cashier at the grocery store, something that that particular male had that was attractive and the male does not know why, so he dismisses it out of fear. It may come a time where the situation arises and the male comes into contact with another male whom satisfies him emotionally, and they become friends, that turns into more after they are both comfortable with the act of homosexuality. This is just a mere example. Many variables come into play with this. Sometimes the sexual part of the relationship of being a homosexual to some is just the icing on the cake. There are those people that are obsessive about the act of sex, just like heterosexual relationships.

Alex said...

However there are those males that seek more than that, they seek the emotional satisfaction and attention of the same sex, only then are they satisfied. When society makes homosexuality an evil behavior, the attraction or need of emotional satisfaction, once discovered, will not cease to exist, rather it becomes a lifestyle hidden or as mine, an obsession to keep hidden within oneself. The consequences could lead to split identities as I had, one identity to live in uniform with society and the other my imagination moving me to a fantasy land. While others do not care about that but would rather really have to lives as one with a girlfriend and another a hidden relationship with a male. One to satisfy society and another to satisfy one self. A lot of people think that homosexuality is the mere carnal need to have sexual relations with the same sex, but this is a surfaced observation. I feel that to understand the homosexual you really would need to be a homosexual, then you could analyze what the complete observation of homosexuality could be. I do not feel that those who are raised LDS and a worthy LDS members and be a return missionary that you would chose a lifestyle contradictory to the behavior instilled in oneself since a young age. Many have committed suicide because they were not able to live with this homosexual inclination while having a testimony of the Gospel.