Answering Anti-Mormon Stuff - The Nature of God

This table was presented in a site against the church. So I will post the table and then my response.

It should be remembered that only the Standard Works of the church are Scripture to us. Harold B. Lee stated this clearly even about his own words as church president. The only exception is where the church president has declared it to be directly from God to him. This must then be sustained by the 12 Apostles and then the general membership of the church. ALL must agree for it to become Scripture to us.

So keep that in mind as you read through this.

LDS DOCTRINE

BIBLICAL TEACHING

GOD THE FATHER: An “Exalted Man” who became God by obedience to the LDS “Gospel Plan”. He has not always been God, nor is he omnipresent (present everywhere) or omnipotent (all powerful). Not having the power to “create” the world out of nothing, God merely “organized” it with pre-existent material. He can only remain God as long as the “intelligences” sustain Him as such. “Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so.”—Brigham Young, 1859, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 345 “It has been said, therefore, that God is everywhere present; but this does not mean that the actual person of any one member of the Godhead can be physically present in more than one place at one time.…plainly, however, His person cannot be in more than one place at any one time.”—James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, (1890), 1966ed., p. 43 “The greatest heresy found in Christendom is that God is a spirit, an essence that fills immensity.…”—Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, p. 77 “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.…” —Doctrine And Covenants 130:22 “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!… I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man.…I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea.…he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.…”—Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 345-346 “We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient.…”—Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, 1853, p. 132 “Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today.”—Seventy Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, 1945, p. 114 “We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advance—a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share.”—Apostle James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, (1890), 1966ed, p. 430 “God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end.”—Apostle Wilford Woodruff (who would eventually become 4th Prophet), 1857, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120 “In the book of Abraham we have clear expression of the creative efforts of the Gods in organizing and forming the earth and heavens (see Abr.4:1). Such language assumes the existence of materials before the creation of this earth began.…The doctrine of creation thus taught in Abraham opposes the notion of a creation ex nihilo (literally, creation ‘out of nothing’).”—The Ensign, March 1997, p. 21 “…Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such.…if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or ‘sense of justice’ of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the ‘power’ of God would disintegrate.” —BYU Professor W. Cleon Skousen, The First 2000 Years, p. 355

GOD THE FATHER: In His very nature and essence God is a spirit—not a man. There was never a time when He did not exist, nor can there ever be a time when He will cease to exist as the one true God. He does not change or progress. In addition to being omnipresent (present everywhere), He is eternally omniscient (all knowing) and omnipotent (all powerful), and thus, He is not bound by the constraints of His creation. I KINGS 8:27: “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?” ISAIAH 66:1: “Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?” JEREMIAH 23:24: “Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.” JOHN 4:24: “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” LUKE 24:39: “…a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” HOSEA 11:9: “…I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee.…” NUMBERS 23:19: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.…” ROMANS 1:22-23: “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.…” ISAIAH 43:10-11: “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” PSALM 90:2: “Before the mountain were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” HABAKKUK 1:12: “Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One?.…” MALACHI 3:6: “For I am the LORD, I change not.…” JAMES 1:17: “Every good gift…cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” I KINGS 8:39: “…give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest: (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)” PSALM 147:5: “Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.” GENESIS 17:1: “…the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.” ISAIAH 40:12-14, 28: “Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? …Hast thou not known? Hast thou not heart, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? There is no searching of his understanding.”

I remember on my mission being faced with a situation of answering all this anti-Mormon material to a new member who was having second thoughts. A quote was given from Brigham Young. The Holy Ghost said to me, "you only answer things in the Standard Works; stick to that only." A quote came up next that was easy for me to answer. The Holy Ghost said, if you answer even one you will then be expected to answer all statements." He went on to say that the quotes will become more and more obscure and from people you Won't know whether they were GAs or not.

This is a classic case. Here the writer has scooped so low that he is quoting a university professor as if that makes his religious ideas authoritative revelation to us. Then above that he has quoted a nameless person who did a column in the Ensign (a monthly church magazine).

The first accusation, which is based on this professor's claim, is _ "He can only remain God as long as the 'intelligences' sustain Him as such."

I should mention, for the education of any wishing to know, that idea from a professor is absolute twaddle. Those particles only have an awareness of their local level. If you approach those particles with love they will do whatever you ask every time because they enjoy that love. And God is love. He is full of it. He doesn't need their approval beyond having the love. This also answers the concept recorded in Abr 4:1.

Apart from the reference of Abraham, the only authoritative quote is the one from the Doctrine and Covenants. It establishes that the Father has a physical body.

Now we shall look at the quotes given by the writer to dispute that idea. He poses some things as "facts". But are these ideas really facts. As the Bible tells us almost nothing about the make-up of God the Father I shall include Jesus Christ in this (as the trinitarians say they are the same anyway) _

Firstly he claims God is not a man, but only a spirit. Then he tells us that he has always existed. Along with this he implies that he has always existed as a God: That there was never a time in all of eternity when he wasn't a God. Then he claims that he does not change or progress. He talks of his omnipresence, his omniscience, and his omnipotence. Then he claims, "He is not bound by the constraints of His creation."

Let me begin by first pointing out that we don't claim that there was a time when God didn't exist. We state that in the eternities he wasn't always a God. So let's look at the Scriptures quoted in regard God and his size _

I KINGS 8:27: “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? See, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built?”

ISAIAH 66:1: “This says the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that you build to me? and where is the place of my rest?”

JEREMIAH 23:24: “Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? says the LORD.”

The Bible tells us that we are in 1. the image of God. And 2. The likeness of God (Genesis 1:26). What does this mean? One word refers to an image in a mirror. The other refers to the "phantom": That which you can't see. So that Moses is saying that we were created looking like God and that we additionally are like God in all the aspects you can't see. To confirm this understanding the Bible then goes on to tell us that Seth (Adam's son) was in the image and the likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3).

So then this demonstrates that as we are like God inside, as well as outside, then our inside is capable of feeling things beyond the size of our body. This has been proven very often. I myself have felt romantic interest from females at times at a distance. We can pick up other strong feelings from people at times. Considering the righteousness of God it is no wonder his intelligence fills the universe. But does this mean that he physically fills the universe? The Bible goes on to show that to be untrue.

If we are to accept Isaiah is giving us an anatomy lesson on God then we have a God who doesn't fill the universe, because he is so small that his feet fit on the earth. And what is more the heavens are a throne that he sits on. Thus meaning the God can't fill the heavens but only sits on them.

Jeremiah then disputes with Isaiah and tells us that God fills those heavens that he sits on.

Then I Kings tells us that the heavens can't contain God because he's too big.

What a confusing lot of information! If we make this into an anatomy lesson, as the writer is attempting to do, we have contradictions. Obviously this is not a truly anatomical lesson on God's make-up.

The next Scripture quoted _

JOHN 4:24: “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

John states in the Greek that "God a spirit", but is wrongly translated into English as "God is a spirit". 1 John 4:8 states that the God IS love, in Greek as well as English. So if John 4:24 were stating that God "is" a spirit, it would use the Greek word "esti" as it does twice in verse 22 (only 2 verses previous) and also in the statement "God is love". However it is true to state that God has a spirit. It must be noted what the point of the statement is, and that is to point out that we must worship God in our spirit inside. So John is referring to the fact that God has a spirit also (or that God has the Holy Spirit, and we must worship Him with the Holy Spirit in us): John wasn't attempting to give a doctrinal discussion on the physical make-up of God.

The next Scripture quoted _

LUKE 24:39: “…a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.”

Thank you writer. Here the writer is admitting that after the resurrection and ascension the Lord has a body, and ISN'T just a spirit.

The next Scriptures quoted _

HOSEA 11:9: “…I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of you.…”

NUMBERS 23:19: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.…”

Yet Jesus refers to himself as the "son of man" (Matt 8:20, 9:6, 10:23, 11:19, 12:32, 12:40, 13:37, 13:41, 16:13 etc. etc. etc.).

These verses the writer has quoted are a plain and simple declaration that God is not like a fallen human in that he would lie or cheat etc. Again this is not about an anatomy lesson where he explains his physical make-up. Jesus Christ, in one place, refers to himself as being like a chook and having wings. These types of comments should be taken in line with the message the scripture is portraying.

ROMANS 1:22-23: “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.…”

This verse goes on to say _ "and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things." Romans 1:23

In other words he is quoting all the idols that mankind worshipped at the time. This mention of corruptible people are their Gods such as Neptune, Mars, Venus, Mercury, etc. that had personal problems. Thus making them corruptible. We know that God has no personal problems.

The next Scriptures quoted are these _

ISAIAH 43:10-11: “You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

PSALM 90:2: “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you art God.”

HABAKKUK 1:12: “Are you not from everlasting, O LORD my God, my Holy One?.…”

In Isaiah it is saying that he came before all these idols they carved and turned into gods. And as they aren't really gods then he is still god after these idols end.

The other 2 relate to the time/eternity factor. The Bible tells us when time began for this earth. Before that it was eternity/everlasting. Additionally it tells us that time will end when all this is over and God is reigning on earth permanently. In other words before the creation it was eternity. After the resurrection of this earth we will have gone back to eternity/everlasting. Thus from eternity/everlasting to eternity/everlasting God is God. That doesn't mean that at some previous point, time didn't existed on a planet elsewhere. Such an interpretation would have to proven.

Next set of scriptures quoted _

MALACHI 3:6: “For I am the LORD, I don't change.…”

JAMES 1:17: “Every good gift…comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”

This varying and changing means that what he requires of us won't change. Note the following verses _

Acts 2:33 _ It says of Jesus, "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear."

This is stating the Jesus has been exalted. That sounds like a change to me.

Luke 22:43 _ "Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him."

Jesus is strengthened. A change.

Matthew 27:46 _ "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' That is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'"

Jesus notes the change in that he is forsaken.

Luke 2:52 "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and stature. A definite change. He also gained greater "favour" with God.

I KINGS 8:39: “…give to every man according to his ways, whose heart you know: (for you, even you only, know the hearts of all the children of men;)”

We teach this. It's only if you want to apply this to all the children of men throughout all existence, worlds without end, that we would disagree. Not that he can't if need be. But it isn't necessary, as they have their own God.

PSALM 147:5: “Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.”

This is stating that the Lord Jesus Christ has "great power". Then he declares that the Lord has infinite understanding. Many statements in the Scriptures are relative statements. They must be taken looking at the circumstance. Also note that this doesn't declare the Lord to have more than "great power". It doesn't declare him to be omnipotent in this verse.

GENESIS 17:1: “…the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and you be perfect.”

What is the point of quoting this scripture text????? It doesn't relate to the subject. It just demonstrates that we can be perfect if we follow God's instructions.

ISAIAH 40:12-14, 28: “Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor has taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding? …Have you not known? Have you not heart, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, doesn't faint, neither is weary? There is no searching of his understanding.”

Obviously Isaiah is talking within his understanding. We know that God understands how to make planets far beyond our understanding of the method. I would pose to the writer that the Scripture tell us that God RESTED from his labors on the Sabbath, yet this in Isaiah says that God doesn't get faint or weary. So how literally should we take those texts that oppose each other?

Almost all of the scripture texts used by the writer are from the Old Testament. Not that I have anything against the Old Testament, but the New Testament has a far more enlightened understanding of God. The New Testament presents a Lord that is learning, struggling with pain, talking to the Father, sleeping on rocks, weeping, saying we can understand what the Father does, been surprised at times, says that he isn't "good" but only God is, has a resurrected physical body that the apostles felt, was afraid to go through suffering, came as our servant, etc.